What Evidence is required for a speeding convictio
Discussion
OK, My Sister was driving my Lotus, I was in the passanger seat. On a deserted evening she came off a roundabout rather quickly. On the opposite side of the road facing the opposite direction there was a traffic copper "attending" to someone he had just pulled over.
Anyway a NIP has appeared, in my name as I own the car. There is no problem with this, as she was insured but what I am wondering what eveidence does he have. The NIP says 50 in a 30 zone. I know that wasnt the speed.
The PC was not in the car, there is no speed camera what evidence does he have and what evidence does he need? Can he really prosecute?
Anyway a NIP has appeared, in my name as I own the car. There is no problem with this, as she was insured but what I am wondering what eveidence does he have. The NIP says 50 in a 30 zone. I know that wasnt the speed.
The PC was not in the car, there is no speed camera what evidence does he have and what evidence does he need? Can he really prosecute?
Gooby said:
OK, My Sister was driving my Lotus, I was in the passanger seat. On a deserted evening she came off a roundabout rather quickly. On the opposite side of the road facing the opposite direction there was a traffic copper "attending" to someone he had just pulled over.
Anyway a NIP has appeared, in my name as I own the car. There is no problem with this, as she was insured but what I am wondering what eveidence does he have. The NIP says 50 in a 30 zone. I know that wasnt the speed.
The PC was not in the car, there is no speed camera what evidence does he have and what evidence does he need? Can he really prosecute?
Gooby, if you pay this you need your head examined.
Write back to them and ask what on earth they are talking about.
From what you write, you or your sister were not stopped, did not go through a Scamera or a Gatso, and were not followed by a police vehicle.
How could they possibly charge you with anything.
How bloody crazy is the enforcement scenario going to get before we have some common sense applied.
[quote=GoobyThe PC was not in the car, there is no speed camera what evidence does he have and what evidence does he need? Can he really prosecute?[/quote]
Professional opinion of two Bibs or 1 in Scotlan (or is that the other way round).
They don't need any speed measurement evidence to secure conviction.
Professional opinion of two Bibs or 1 in Scotlan (or is that the other way round).
They don't need any speed measurement evidence to secure conviction.
bluepolarbear said:
They don't need any speed measurement evidence to secure conviction.
They need evidence plus corroboration. If it's only a single cop's word and he was stationary at the time then they appear to be lacking, however the mags will often accept a cop's word regardless in England/Wales. In Scotland you really need 2 cops, AFAIK.
Get yourself over to PePiPoo for more info. Read the stickies in the Judicial Process forum and take it from there.
Not at this first initial stage Goodby. You have had what is termed the Conditional Offer. This is for those who accept they were speeding and have the matter dealt with by paying 6o pounds and getting 3 points on the Licence.
For those that don't accept, then the matter is heard at Magistrates Court under a Not Guilty Plea when evidence from both sides is heard and Their Worships pronounce one way or the other. Under this proceedure the prosecution has to disclose all its evidence before hand under disclosure rules.
Whilst SCP are not duty bound at the C.O. stage to disclose evidence, it would appear a number do so write back and ask for photograph/method of detection.
Bear in mind in the paperwork they have sent there is a form under S 172 RTA asking the Reg Keeper to name the driver. Failure to do so is also an offence.
Now regarding opinion of speed. Section 89 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 at para 2 states:
Any person prosecutred for such an offence shall not be liable to be convicted soley on the evidence of one witness to the effect that, IN THE OPINION OF THE WITNESS, the person prosecuted was driving the vehicle as a speed exceeding a specific limit.
(Devils Advocate mode on now) - This means that a Bib cannot prosecute just from his own opinion that a person was speeding. It would need another alongside him or reference to his speedometer. Now guns, cameras etc do not give an opinion but come up with a FACT so really this doesn't have to be corroborated. But to show the offence SCP do come up with photographs and lines etc.
DVD
For those that don't accept, then the matter is heard at Magistrates Court under a Not Guilty Plea when evidence from both sides is heard and Their Worships pronounce one way or the other. Under this proceedure the prosecution has to disclose all its evidence before hand under disclosure rules.
Whilst SCP are not duty bound at the C.O. stage to disclose evidence, it would appear a number do so write back and ask for photograph/method of detection.
Bear in mind in the paperwork they have sent there is a form under S 172 RTA asking the Reg Keeper to name the driver. Failure to do so is also an offence.
Now regarding opinion of speed. Section 89 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 at para 2 states:
Any person prosecutred for such an offence shall not be liable to be convicted soley on the evidence of one witness to the effect that, IN THE OPINION OF THE WITNESS, the person prosecuted was driving the vehicle as a speed exceeding a specific limit.
(Devils Advocate mode on now) - This means that a Bib cannot prosecute just from his own opinion that a person was speeding. It would need another alongside him or reference to his speedometer. Now guns, cameras etc do not give an opinion but come up with a FACT so really this doesn't have to be corroborated. But to show the offence SCP do come up with photographs and lines etc.
DVD
Dwight VanDriver said:
Not at this first initial stage Goodby. You have had what is termed the Conditional Offer. This is for those who accept they were speeding and have the matter dealt with by paying 6o pounds and getting 3 points on the Licence.
Now regarding opinion of speed. Section 89 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 at para 2 states:
Any person prosecutred for such an offence shall not be liable to be convicted soley on the evidence of one witness to the effect that, IN THE OPINION OF THE WITNESS, the person prosecuted was driving the vehicle as a speed exceeding a specific limit.
DVD
Wow thanks for the quality info. If I had to reason it out, traffic cars have to be operated by a 2 man team (I believe). The one guy I saw sprinting for his car after we passed was probably backed up by another who will coloborate his "opinion"... Poo
I think I will fill out the forms and include a polite letter asking on what evidence is these charges being brought?
Thanks for your help.
Dwight VanDriver said:
Not at this first initial stage Goodby. You have had what is termed the Conditional Offer. This is for those who accept they were speeding and have the matter dealt with by paying 6o pounds and getting 3 points on the Licence.
For those that don't accept, then the matter is heard at Magistrates Court under a Not Guilty Plea when evidence from both sides is heard and Their Worships pronounce one way or the other. Under this proceedure the prosecution has to disclose all its evidence before hand under disclosure rules.
Whilst SCP are not duty bound at the C.O. stage to disclose evidence, it would appear a number do so write back and ask for photograph/method of detection.
Bear in mind in the paperwork they have sent there is a form under S 172 RTA asking the Reg Keeper to name the driver. Failure to do so is also an offence.
Now regarding opinion of speed. Section 89 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 at para 2 states:
Any person prosecutred for such an offence shall not be liable to be convicted soley on the evidence of one witness to the effect that, IN THE OPINION OF THE WITNESS, the person prosecuted was driving the vehicle as a speed exceeding a specific limit.
(Devils Advocate mode on now) - This means that a Bib cannot prosecute just from his own opinion that a person was speeding. It would need another alongside him or reference to his speedometer. Now guns, cameras etc do not give an opinion but come up with a FACT so really this doesn't have to be corroborated. But to show the offence SCP do come up with photographs and lines etc.
DVD
Just remember the so called Justice System is heavily stacked against you...
Unfortunately you might be better off just taking it on the chin - after all it is only £60 and 3 points.....
If you challenge it, and it ends up in court you are liable to get a much steeper fine and even more points - regardless of guilt or eveidence....
It may be a case of bemd over this is going to hurt...
Unfortunately you might be better off just taking it on the chin - after all it is only £60 and 3 points.....
If you challenge it, and it ends up in court you are liable to get a much steeper fine and even more points - regardless of guilt or eveidence....
It may be a case of bemd over this is going to hurt...
If I got a nip in these circumstances, which asks for the driver, I would be tempted to ask for more details to help me ascertain whether it was me or my sister driving at that exact moment. That might flush out a photo, or the cop might have noticed whether it was a man or a woman driving.
As streetcop says, you may have been "got" by a laser gun or something which you didn't notice.
As streetcop says, you may have been "got" by a laser gun or something which you didn't notice.
jesusbuiltmycar said:
Just remember the so called Justice System is heavily stacked against you...
Unfortunately you might be better off just taking it on the chin - after all it is only £60 and 3 points.....
If you challenge it, and it ends up in court you are liable to get a much steeper fine and even more points - regardless of guilt or eveidence....
It may be a case of bemd over this is going to hurt...
I respectfully disagree. Magistrates get speeding tickets too - they are too widespread and farreaching now to have any taboo, it's sort of strange NOT having points for speeding these days.
The courts are picky about evidence - that is their job, and they are not the CPS or the police, or the government (yet).
For your 'only' 3 points and £60 you get nothing. Going to court however does not cost very much (big solicitors bills excluded - if you choose to use them), throws a giant spanner into the works and gives you very useful court experience. As we are all criminalised over the next few years by demented home secretaries (oh so you thought Blindett was bad
) this will stand you in good stead - we only fear that which we don't know. I would ask for help in identifying the driver and see what they've got. Cost = £0 + 0 points.
Globulators said:
For your 'only' 3 points and £60 you get nothing. Going to court however does not cost very much (big solicitors bills excluded - if you choose to use them),
Whilst it may throw a spanner in the works it does cost you...
Even if found not guilty, your time and personal costs are not re-imbersed. For anyone that is self employed, taking a day of work to fight a £60 fine is out of the question.
I am not really one to "bend over and take it". Frankly my sister was driving she spends so little time in this country that she will ignore it anyway. The other problem is that the form asks for her signeture. As she is safely back in the 'states this is a little hard to obtain. Can they insist that she signs it?
Whenever she comes over she borrows my car and I know she is back in the states when all the GATSO's have taken piccies of my car. I have given her details so often that I can almost do the GATSO forms in my sleep.
This one is a little different. It is asking specifically for driver number (driving licence) and it states that it must be signed by the driver.
Whenever she comes over she borrows my car and I know she is back in the states when all the GATSO's have taken piccies of my car. I have given her details so often that I can almost do the GATSO forms in my sleep.
This one is a little different. It is asking specifically for driver number (driving licence) and it states that it must be signed by the driver.
Get over to www.pepipoo.com, post your details, read the site and then you can decide what to do.
Was it issued within 14 days of the alleged offence?
What does the letter ACTUALLY say?
You've got 28 days to formulate a response, don't act in haste and don't give in til you can do no more.
Was it issued within 14 days of the alleged offence?
What does the letter ACTUALLY say?
You've got 28 days to formulate a response, don't act in haste and don't give in til you can do no more.
Chances are with you sister living abroad, they will not bother to follow it up.
A friend of mine visits the UK regularly from the middle east, when hear he hires a car and in the past he has been caught speeding a few times. When he fills in the NIP form with his foreing address it is usally the last he hears of the offence.
One time BIB pulled him over at 112MPH on the way to the airport. He had to give a UK address to the BIB so he gave mine (since it is where he stays when he visits) along with his address in Kabul - surprisingly enough a letter turned up at mine a few monsth later stating his speed, the offence and something along the the lines of "since you no longer reside in the UK thsi matter has been dropped"
A friend of mine visits the UK regularly from the middle east, when hear he hires a car and in the past he has been caught speeding a few times. When he fills in the NIP form with his foreing address it is usally the last he hears of the offence.
One time BIB pulled him over at 112MPH on the way to the airport. He had to give a UK address to the BIB so he gave mine (since it is where he stays when he visits) along with his address in Kabul - surprisingly enough a letter turned up at mine a few monsth later stating his speed, the offence and something along the the lines of "since you no longer reside in the UK thsi matter has been dropped"
mondeoman said:
Was it issued within 14 days of the alleged offence?
What does the letter ACTUALLY say?
Yep, the NIP is within 14 days of the offence. It actually says;
In accordance with the provisions of the road traffic regulation act 1984 / Road traffic act 1988, as amended by the road traffic act 1991, you are notified that a report has been submitted in connection with a traffic occurance involving motor vehicle bearing registration mark XXXXXX which took place on the highway or public place at - blah blah blah.
Consideration is being given to the question of prosecuting you/driver for one or more of the following offences:-
Excess speed - 50mph in a 30mph limit
The fact that this notice is sent to you does not necessarily indicate that there will be a prosecution. Tp comply with the law, such a notice must be sent within fourteen days of an incident which may lead to a prosecution for the offences named.
Yours faithfully..........
Below it states,
In accordance with the above provisions and the authority granted therein, I hereby require you to furnish at an early date on this form (which has been duly stamped and addressed) the name and address of the driver/rider of the vehicle on the above occasion.
jesusbuiltmycar said:I can only speak for myself but the £60 fine wouldn't bother me much. What I would care about is the avoidance of points.
For your 'only' 3 points and £60 you get nothing. Going to court however does not cost very much (big solicitors bills excluded - if you choose to use them),
Whilst it may throw a spanner in the works it does cost you...
Even if found not guilty, your time and personal costs are not re-imbersed. For anyone that is self employed, taking a day of work to fight a £60 fine is out of the question.
Gooby said:
Was it issued within 14 days of the alleged offence?
What does the letter ACTUALLY say?
Yep, the NIP is within 14 days of the offence. It actually says;
In accordance with the provisions of the road traffic regulation act 1984 / Road traffic act 1988, as amended by the road traffic act 1991, you are notified that a report has been submitted in connection with a traffic occurance involving motor vehicle bearing registration mark XXXXXX which took place on the highway or public place at - blah blah blah.
Consideration is being given to the question of prosecuting you/driver for one or more of the following offences:-
Excess speed - 50mph in a 30mph limit
The fact that this notice is sent to you does not necessarily indicate that there will be a prosecution. Tp comply with the law, such a notice must be sent within fourteen days of an incident which may lead to a prosecution for the offences named.
Yours faithfully..........
Below it states,
In accordance with the above provisions and the authority granted therein, I hereby require you to furnish at an early date on this form (which has been duly stamped and addressed) the name and address of the driver/rider of the vehicle on the above occasion.
Does it say anywhere that they have videographic evidence in support of the allegation?
A policeman can only say that excess speed was involved, not give an accurate speed unless corroborated by a proscribed device (speedo, laser, radar etc...). If two plod report you for excess speed then they have corroboration of speeding, but not an exact figure. By them naming an actual speed, they must have it backed up by a proscribed device.
See pepipoo before formulating your response.
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