Private road now blocked
Discussion
Not sure if this is the right place for this! Feel free to suggest a different area.
I'll try to be brief.
Our private estate has 2 entrances/exits, the majority of this road is owned by the Resident's Association with the last 100m owned by a business unit.
This business unit is in the process of being sold as the previous owners went bust. Today, concrete barriers were put across the road on their land.
This road was used by everyone on the estate, the council, etc. and was partially maintained by the Residents -Association. The estate now has one entrance which changes it into a very long cul-de-sac with no appropriate turning point for large vehicles.
The residents obviously feel aggrieved by this action, without any consultation with the Residents Association.
So, is it lawful for them to do this? Can we move the barriers to regain the route? Could this road be described as a Right of Way?
It's a shame that the new owners are so confrontational, the Residents Association really are quite helpful and supportive.
Thanks for your time.
I'll try to be brief.
Our private estate has 2 entrances/exits, the majority of this road is owned by the Resident's Association with the last 100m owned by a business unit.
This business unit is in the process of being sold as the previous owners went bust. Today, concrete barriers were put across the road on their land.
This road was used by everyone on the estate, the council, etc. and was partially maintained by the Residents -Association. The estate now has one entrance which changes it into a very long cul-de-sac with no appropriate turning point for large vehicles.
The residents obviously feel aggrieved by this action, without any consultation with the Residents Association.
So, is it lawful for them to do this? Can we move the barriers to regain the route? Could this road be described as a Right of Way?
It's a shame that the new owners are so confrontational, the Residents Association really are quite helpful and supportive.
Thanks for your time.
John145 said:
Not sure if this is the right place for this! Feel free to suggest a different area.
I'll try to be brief.
Our private estate has 2 entrances/exits, the majority of this road is owned by the Resident's Association with the last 100m owned by a business unit.
This business unit is in the process of being sold as the previous owners went bust. Today, concrete barriers were put across the road on their land.
This road was used by everyone on the estate, the council, etc. and was partially maintained by the Residents -Association. The estate now has one entrance which changes it into a very long cul-de-sac with no appropriate turning point for large vehicles.
The residents obviously feel aggrieved by this action, without any consultation with the Residents Association.
So, is it lawful for them to do this? Can we move the barriers to regain the route? Could this road be described as a Right of Way?
It's a shame that the new owners are so confrontational, the Residents Association really are quite helpful and supportive.
Thanks for your time.
You need a lawyer. The deeds need to be gone over with care and, vitally, knowledge.I'll try to be brief.
Our private estate has 2 entrances/exits, the majority of this road is owned by the Resident's Association with the last 100m owned by a business unit.
This business unit is in the process of being sold as the previous owners went bust. Today, concrete barriers were put across the road on their land.
This road was used by everyone on the estate, the council, etc. and was partially maintained by the Residents -Association. The estate now has one entrance which changes it into a very long cul-de-sac with no appropriate turning point for large vehicles.
The residents obviously feel aggrieved by this action, without any consultation with the Residents Association.
So, is it lawful for them to do this? Can we move the barriers to regain the route? Could this road be described as a Right of Way?
It's a shame that the new owners are so confrontational, the Residents Association really are quite helpful and supportive.
Thanks for your time.
It is hardly unknown for a new owner to stake out squatters' rights on no other grounds than that they were told they could.
Best of luck.
blueg33 said:
Jasandjules said:
Has it been used by your houses for say 12 years?
This, if it has speak to a lawyer about prescriptive rightsAlso see what the title says.
John145 said:
It seems as though we have a lawyer on the estate as they're already looking for 3 residents who've been living there continuously for 20 years or more to draft a letter. Sounds promising, I'll keep you updated and thanks for the advice so far.
Sounds like Highways Act 1980. Is that relevant for vehicular access, though (IANAL)?http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/sectio...
You need to check the deeds and it may well have a right of access. It maybe that the administrators of the industrial building have blocked the road to stop pikies moving in which is fairly standard procedure while the unit is unoccupied and may not even know of the right of access....
Has anyone asked them!
Has anyone asked them!
John145 said:
Can we move the barriers to regain the route?
Could this road be described as a Right of Way?
If a right of way exists, then yes an obstruction may legally be removed. The right to mitigate an obstruction is called an abatement.Could this road be described as a Right of Way?
The best source of information on Rights of Way is the definitive map which must be maintained by your local authority, typically the highways dept, ask for the Rights of Way Officer.
The definitive map shows public rights of way,which is not what we have here. The situation is that there may be a private easement to use the road provided there is evidence of twenty years use and that use has continued as of right and without significant interruption to it. I imagine this is why the resident lawyer is seeking evidence based on twenty years use. If the right can be established by evidence then the block would have to be removed, by injunction if necessary. If the evidence is accepted by the business owners there will probably be no need for a trip to court.
The odds are the business unit buyers (or sellers, especially if forced) will be wanting to keep the 3.14keys out till the premises are occupied.
I'd treat them like any new neighbour, i.e. with honey not Iknowmyrightsyoucantdothat, till I find out what they are like. I'd rather suffer the dead end for a few weeks rather than a temporary caravan or fly tip site for 6 months.
Hopefully your lawyer neighbour is of a similar mindset and lets them know you expect the blockage gone once the transaction has gone through. Certainly if he came over arsey if I was the site owner I would remove them only if you all offered to share the eviction and clear up costs.
I'd treat them like any new neighbour, i.e. with honey not Iknowmyrightsyoucantdothat, till I find out what they are like. I'd rather suffer the dead end for a few weeks rather than a temporary caravan or fly tip site for 6 months.
Hopefully your lawyer neighbour is of a similar mindset and lets them know you expect the blockage gone once the transaction has gone through. Certainly if he came over arsey if I was the site owner I would remove them only if you all offered to share the eviction and clear up costs.
Collectingbrass said:
The odds are the business unit buyers (or sellers, especially if forced) will be wanting to keep the 3.14keys out till the premises are occupied.
I'd treat them like any new neighbour, i.e. with honey not Iknowmyrightsyoucantdothat, till I find out what they are like. I'd rather suffer the dead end for a few weeks rather than a temporary caravan or fly tip site for 6 months.
Hopefully your lawyer neighbour is of a similar mindset and lets them know you expect the blockage gone once the transaction has gone through. Certainly if he came over arsey if I was the site owner I would remove them only if you all offered to share the eviction and clear up costs.
"If you dont let me breach your legal rights you will have to pay my costs" is a sI'd treat them like any new neighbour, i.e. with honey not Iknowmyrightsyoucantdothat, till I find out what they are like. I'd rather suffer the dead end for a few weeks rather than a temporary caravan or fly tip site for 6 months.
Hopefully your lawyer neighbour is of a similar mindset and lets them know you expect the blockage gone once the transaction has gone through. Certainly if he came over arsey if I was the site owner I would remove them only if you all offered to share the eviction and clear up costs.
tty position to take and almost certainly untenable if it came to court. Small update:
The potential new owners were unaware of the blockage and have no intention of stopping our usage. It was the estate agents handling the sale who have organised the blockage.
Not sure why they've done it, the RA is in contact with the estate agents and hopefully will get a response in the next couple of days.
It's an odd decision because the site has been unused now for upwards of half a year and never had any problems with opportunists.
Once we get the update from the EA I'll let you know - hopefully this can be resolved in the week.
The potential new owners were unaware of the blockage and have no intention of stopping our usage. It was the estate agents handling the sale who have organised the blockage.
Not sure why they've done it, the RA is in contact with the estate agents and hopefully will get a response in the next couple of days.
It's an odd decision because the site has been unused now for upwards of half a year and never had any problems with opportunists.
Once we get the update from the EA I'll let you know - hopefully this can be resolved in the week.
To be fair, its standard practice to secure a site, and in the summer "traveller season" its all the more important. We have had concrete blocks moved on one site this week by our wandering friends.
They have now left after a visit from "security"
But its good practice to make sure no one has rights of access before you block it up
They have now left after a visit from "security"
But its good practice to make sure no one has rights of access before you block it up
Update as promised, things are going to have to get a bit more heated it seems.
Jobsworth said:
Dear xxxxx,
Thank you for your email to my colleagued (“the Company”) was placed into Members Voluntary Liquidation on the 16th November 2015 when S. R Browne and I were appointed as Joint Liquidators. I attach a copy of our Certificate of Appointment for your information.
Our enquiries, through our lawyers, property agents and surveyor, do not show that the access road was adopted by the Council. The road is on private property, owned by the Company. In order to comply with restrictions imposed by our insurers, the liquidators have been required to prevent access. Without this, the insurers would not be prepared to meet the costs of any Public Liability claim specifically relating to injury or third party property damage resulting from incidents directly caused from the use of the access road.
This means that the residents will have to take a slightly longer route now to reach the main road, but unfortunately this situation is unavoidable.
Kind regards
Is any civil/criminal offence committed by removing the obstruction as it's believed to be an adopted road?Thank you for your email to my colleagued (“the Company”) was placed into Members Voluntary Liquidation on the 16th November 2015 when S. R Browne and I were appointed as Joint Liquidators. I attach a copy of our Certificate of Appointment for your information.
Our enquiries, through our lawyers, property agents and surveyor, do not show that the access road was adopted by the Council. The road is on private property, owned by the Company. In order to comply with restrictions imposed by our insurers, the liquidators have been required to prevent access. Without this, the insurers would not be prepared to meet the costs of any Public Liability claim specifically relating to injury or third party property damage resulting from incidents directly caused from the use of the access road.
This means that the residents will have to take a slightly longer route now to reach the main road, but unfortunately this situation is unavoidable.
Kind regards
Edited by John145 on Friday 5th August 03:25
John145 said:
Update as promised, things are going to have to get a bit more heated it seems.
The last few lines of that come off incredibly arsey and condescending from them!Jobsworth said:
Dear xxxxx,
Thank you for your email to my colleague, La Reve Lynn. Iceni Waters Limited (“the Company”) was placed into Members Voluntary Liquidation on the 16th November 2015 when S. R Browne and I were appointed as Joint Liquidators. I attach a copy of our Certificate of Appointment for your information.
Our enquiries, through our lawyers, property agents and surveyor, do not show that the access road was adopted by the Council. The road is on private property, owned by the Company. In order to comply with restrictions imposed by our insurers, the liquidators have been required to prevent access. Without this, the insurers would not be prepared to meet the costs of any Public Liability claim specifically relating to injury or third party property damage resulting from incidents directly caused from the use of the access road.
This means that the residents will have to take a slightly longer route now to reach the main road, but unfortunately this situation is unavoidable.
Kind regards
Is any civil/criminal offence committed by removing the obstruction as it's believed to be an adopted road?Thank you for your email to my colleague, La Reve Lynn. Iceni Waters Limited (“the Company”) was placed into Members Voluntary Liquidation on the 16th November 2015 when S. R Browne and I were appointed as Joint Liquidators. I attach a copy of our Certificate of Appointment for your information.
Our enquiries, through our lawyers, property agents and surveyor, do not show that the access road was adopted by the Council. The road is on private property, owned by the Company. In order to comply with restrictions imposed by our insurers, the liquidators have been required to prevent access. Without this, the insurers would not be prepared to meet the costs of any Public Liability claim specifically relating to injury or third party property damage resulting from incidents directly caused from the use of the access road.
This means that the residents will have to take a slightly longer route now to reach the main road, but unfortunately this situation is unavoidable.
Kind regards
I'm no legal boffin by any stretch but if there is no CCTV coverage of the blockade and said blockade should happen to disappear during the night, how are they going to know who did it?
John145 said:
Is any civil/criminal offence committed by removing the obstruction as it's believed to be an adopted road?
Your question isn't whether it's adopted or not. Adopted means the council maintain it. The fact that the residents' association maintain the road shows that it's not adopted.Your question is over whether there's a right of way - either explicitly established through the property's deeds/LR entry (which is unlikely) or through established use (which is where the long-term residents come in).
Short-term, you're going to have to live with the inconvenience until any RoW is determined. If you get the blocks moved, and the site gets colonised by travellers, or other damage/loss occurs arising from that movement, then you may be held liable by the liquidators or their insurers.
Longer-term, you may be able to get the obstructions moved by establishing the RoW.
If the RoW can't be proven, you can bet that anybody who takes the site on is going to be blocking access off...
How does this sound:
John145 IANAL! said:
I, the undersigned, hold prescriptive rights for use of the road between xxx and xxx that runs past the former yyy Unit (xxx). The use of this road has been continuous, without force, secrecy or permission since I first moved to my property (address and commencement below).
As such it is unlawful for you (xxx) to block this easement.
I am formally requesting this blockage be removed by the 12th of August 2016.
A failure to remove the blockage will be escalated to the Residents Association who will be requested to remove the blockage on my behalf and for a fee to be charged for you for each and every time this blockage lawfully removed.
The tests for an easement to be lawful are fully met as in the Practice Guide provided by the government:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easemen...
By signing this letter, I confirm the following statements are wholly truthful.
- Continuous use for over 20 years
o I personally have, and also know of many others (including council vehicles), had continuous use of this road since I moved in
- Without force, secrecy or permission
o I have never forced entry onto this road
o I have never acted dishonestly or with secrecy whilst using this road
o I have never sought or required permission to use this road
- The right claimed must be one that could have been lawfully granted
o There are no lawful restrictions to the use of motor vehicles on this road
- Railway etc land
o This land is not owned by the British Transport Commission, nor is it covered under the Brtitish Transport Commission Act
- The operation of the easements when no register entries are made
o No registry search has been made as it not required for the easement to be considered lawful
o It is your duty to advise any potential purchaser that an easement is in effect on this road
- It is possible for an easement to cease to have effect on a registered disposition if the transferee had no actual knowledge of it, it was not obvious on a reasonably careful inspection of the land, and it had not been exercised within 1 year of the transfer.
o This test is failed as the road is used continuously through the day by myself, other residents, council officials, professional drivers and 20 minutes waiting would see evidence of such
I look forward to your response.
Best Regards,
Name:
Address:
Approximate date of beginning of permanent residency:
Approximate date of first use of the road:
Removed specifics!As such it is unlawful for you (xxx) to block this easement.
I am formally requesting this blockage be removed by the 12th of August 2016.
A failure to remove the blockage will be escalated to the Residents Association who will be requested to remove the blockage on my behalf and for a fee to be charged for you for each and every time this blockage lawfully removed.
The tests for an easement to be lawful are fully met as in the Practice Guide provided by the government:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easemen...
By signing this letter, I confirm the following statements are wholly truthful.
- Continuous use for over 20 years
o I personally have, and also know of many others (including council vehicles), had continuous use of this road since I moved in
- Without force, secrecy or permission
o I have never forced entry onto this road
o I have never acted dishonestly or with secrecy whilst using this road
o I have never sought or required permission to use this road
- The right claimed must be one that could have been lawfully granted
o There are no lawful restrictions to the use of motor vehicles on this road
- Railway etc land
o This land is not owned by the British Transport Commission, nor is it covered under the Brtitish Transport Commission Act
- The operation of the easements when no register entries are made
o No registry search has been made as it not required for the easement to be considered lawful
o It is your duty to advise any potential purchaser that an easement is in effect on this road
- It is possible for an easement to cease to have effect on a registered disposition if the transferee had no actual knowledge of it, it was not obvious on a reasonably careful inspection of the land, and it had not been exercised within 1 year of the transfer.
o This test is failed as the road is used continuously through the day by myself, other residents, council officials, professional drivers and 20 minutes waiting would see evidence of such
I look forward to your response.
Best Regards,
Name:
Address:
Approximate date of beginning of permanent residency:
Approximate date of first use of the road:
Edited by John145 on Thursday 4th August 16:22
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