Company invoice/ offset costs
Discussion
Company issue
Firm buys a lot of white silicone and clear from a company in the Europe. After giving thorough details of applications tooling agents and tour of our production facility.
The white silicone turns out to be faulty and turns yellow within months. We then notify them and they offer to rectify at their costs. They then drag heals and change mind sending a person from Belgium to look at effected projects. Around 300 bathrooms effected.
Then they say its lack of uv light in student bathrooms with no windows which they saw being made! We refute this and threaten legal action which we are in the process of doing.
We owe them £2k for clear silicone as we have paid for all the white and they are going legal. Our costs are £10k and rising for the white faulty silicone.
Can we offset against this invoice or do we just pay it and pursue them.
Firm buys a lot of white silicone and clear from a company in the Europe. After giving thorough details of applications tooling agents and tour of our production facility.
The white silicone turns out to be faulty and turns yellow within months. We then notify them and they offer to rectify at their costs. They then drag heals and change mind sending a person from Belgium to look at effected projects. Around 300 bathrooms effected.
Then they say its lack of uv light in student bathrooms with no windows which they saw being made! We refute this and threaten legal action which we are in the process of doing.
We owe them £2k for clear silicone as we have paid for all the white and they are going legal. Our costs are £10k and rising for the white faulty silicone.
Can we offset against this invoice or do we just pay it and pursue them.
surveyor_101 said:
Company issue
Firm buys a lot of white silicone and clear from a company in the Europe. After giving thorough details of applications tooling agents and tour of our production facility.
The white silicone turns out to be faulty and turns yellow within months. We then notify them and they offer to rectify at their costs. They then drag heals and change mind sending a person from Belgium to look at effected projects. Around 300 bathrooms effected.
Then they say its lack of uv light in student bathrooms with no windows which they saw being made! We refute this and threaten legal action which we are in the process of doing.
We owe them £2k for clear silicone as we have paid for all the white and they are going legal. Our costs are £10k and rising for the white faulty silicone.
Can we offset against this invoice or do we just pay it and pursue them.
Not answering your question, but I have a bathroom with no windows and the silicone is still white years later. Firm buys a lot of white silicone and clear from a company in the Europe. After giving thorough details of applications tooling agents and tour of our production facility.
The white silicone turns out to be faulty and turns yellow within months. We then notify them and they offer to rectify at their costs. They then drag heals and change mind sending a person from Belgium to look at effected projects. Around 300 bathrooms effected.
Then they say its lack of uv light in student bathrooms with no windows which they saw being made! We refute this and threaten legal action which we are in the process of doing.
We owe them £2k for clear silicone as we have paid for all the white and they are going legal. Our costs are £10k and rising for the white faulty silicone.
Can we offset against this invoice or do we just pay it and pursue them.
lots of companies will delay paying invoices if something has gone into dispute. In fact with tender prices being so low and payment dates being extended it is often the only way for some companies to keep their heads above water.
Recent example our company usually trades at 30days from invoice, but the company we are supplying won't get paid from the main contractor for 90 days. The only way the company we are supplying can keep afloat is to put our invoice in query, for any reason they can. Just so they can get some money in from other contracts and survive.
Recent example our company usually trades at 30days from invoice, but the company we are supplying won't get paid from the main contractor for 90 days. The only way the company we are supplying can keep afloat is to put our invoice in query, for any reason they can. Just so they can get some money in from other contracts and survive.
Drumroll said:
lots of companies will delay paying invoices if something has gone into dispute. In fact with tender prices being so low and payment dates being extended it is often the only way for some companies to keep their heads above water.
Recent example our company usually trades at 30days from invoice, but the company we are supplying won't get paid from the main contractor for 90 days. The only way the company we are supplying can keep afloat is to put our invoice in query, for any reason they can. Just so they can get some money in from other contracts and survive.
We have delayed paying it and ceased buying further product from them. They are based in Belgium so will have to pursue legal action there through our solicitor who have a firm in Belgium they deal with. This was done a couple of months ago but the MD has been busy and nothing further has happened.Recent example our company usually trades at 30days from invoice, but the company we are supplying won't get paid from the main contractor for 90 days. The only way the company we are supplying can keep afloat is to put our invoice in query, for any reason they can. Just so they can get some money in from other contracts and survive.
The issue is can we hold this invoice as their credit insurers who happen to be ours as well are starting action shortly we got a heads up.
They argue we had samples and a month of testing but discoloration doesn't occur for 3-6 months. We only trial the product for ease of application in that month as in 25 years here they have never had discoloration occur.
We don't delay paying invoices for 5 months plus normally its only because they know full well we have issues with their white silicone.
98elise said:
Not answering your question, but I have a bathroom with no windows and the silicone is still white years later.
Yes we have never had it in 25 years of trading either.Their Belgium expert just writes barely readable tosh about, the silicone has good adhesion etc and the discoloration most likely occurred due to lack of natural light. They also mention tooling agents as a possible cause. Either way its not their problem. They saw the tooling process when they did a tour with us and had no issues or specified any of their tooling agents.
Its very inconclusive, probably lack of UV light, maybe tooling agent but not their problem. They won't entertain any costs!
We mention the emails from their account manager in England saying he would rectify and they ignore that part of my last letter.
JPJPJP said:
Have you got an issue with the clear silicone too?
no as stated just white which was all paid for before we found 5Nr contracts all over the uk had bathrooms going yellow in places.All bar one client have demanded we go back a redo hundreds of bathroom/shower rooms. We have somewhere in the region of £100k being held by clients until these issues are resolved.
I estimate it will costs around £30k to put right.
Edited by surveyor_101 on Wednesday 3rd August 13:31
akirk said:
surely ability to legally offset or not depends on your contract with them?
otherwise, the two aren't directly related assuming separate orders / separate invoices / etc.
They are a supplier we purchased they say they issued their terms but can't prove it with each invoice but can find no evidence of this, I put that to their man to provide proof and he didn't. otherwise, the two aren't directly related assuming separate orders / separate invoices / etc.
Our terms published on our website means they are liable for any costs incurred and we can recover/offset.
2.1 These Terms and Conditions shall apply to all contracts for the supply of goods and/or services by the Supplier pursuant to one or more Purchase Order.
4.1
The Supplier warrants and guarantees that all goods and materials supplied under this Agreement shall be free from any defects, patent or latent, in material and workmanship, conform to applicable specifications and drawings and, to the extent that detailed designs were not provided to **, will be free from design defects and in every aspect suitable for the purposes intended by **, as to which the Supplier hereby acknowledges that it has had due notice. The approval by ** of any designs provided by the Supplier shall not relieve the Supplier of its obligations under any provision contained in this Clause.
14 FORCE MAJEURE
- shall not be liable for any delay or failure to perform any of its obligations under this Agreement if the delay or failure results from events or circumstances beyond its reasonable control, including but not limited to acts of God, strikes, lock outs, accidents, war, fire, flood or industrial disputes, and ** shall be entitled to a reasonable extension of its obligations.
Edited by surveyor_101 on Wednesday 3rd August 13:50
Edited by surveyor_101 on Wednesday 3rd August 13:54
surveyor_101 said:
We have delayed paying it and ceased buying further product from them. They are based in Belgium so will have to pursue legal action there through our solicitor who have a firm in Belgium they deal with. This was done a couple of months ago but the MD has been busy and nothing further has happened.
Not necessarily. It all depends on what was agreed in the contract between you - regardless of whether a contract was signed.You're into the battle of the documents here.
Typically there will be terms and conditions on the documents that are passed between you during the process of the order - a quotation (from them), a purchase order (from you), a sales order confirmation (from them) and an invoice (from them), all of which might have made reference to which jurisdiction any disputes would be heard in.
Typically a British company would specify English law heard in London, and a Belgian company Belgian law in Brussels. Obviously you would prefer English law since they'd have to come here to do something about it.
Whatever was the last document that had terms and conditions on it will be the one that rules in this case, as all documents can be deemed to have been accepted (since you paid the invoice).
What do all of those documents say?
-edit-
after reading the bottom post again I see that you can't find provision of their Ts and Cs at any point. Did your PO make reference to your own Ts and Cs? Do they mention where disputes should be heard?
roofer said:
You have requested a material that is at fault. Material Manufacturer is liable. I would imagine client has you under EOD or latent.
Have any tests been carried out on supplied product to reinforce your argument ?
It's being dealt with as a snag/defect on all but one project were they are handing the rooms over to the client.Have any tests been carried out on supplied product to reinforce your argument ?
No independent, the supplier sent their technical guy from Belgium, who report good finish and adhesion just noted the yellow like disocolouration which is patchy and does not effect all the silcone but some in virtually every room.
I am more used to subcontract disputes than supplier product issues, hence my question. Solicitors are primed, just need our md and I to instruct them, he has been busy and off, so this went on the back burner.
We had heads up from a credit broker that they are going to start legal action shortly, today.
davepoth said:
Not necessarily. It all depends on what was agreed in the contract between you - regardless of whether a contract was signed.
You're into the battle of the documents here.
Typically there will be terms and conditions on the documents that are passed between you during the process of the order - a quotation (from them), a purchase order (from you), a sales order confirmation (from them) and an invoice (from them), all of which might have made reference to which jurisdiction any disputes would be heard in.
Typically a British company would specify English law heard in London, and a Belgian company Belgian law in Brussels. Obviously you would prefer English law since they'd have to come here to do something about it.
Whatever was the last document that had terms and conditions on it will be the one that rules in this case, as all documents can be deemed to have been accepted (since you paid the invoice).
What do all of those documents say?
-edit-
after reading the bottom post again I see that you can't find provision of their Ts and Cs at any point. Did your PO make reference to your own Ts and Cs? Do they mention where disputes should be heard?
I wrote to them pointing out our terms.You're into the battle of the documents here.
Typically there will be terms and conditions on the documents that are passed between you during the process of the order - a quotation (from them), a purchase order (from you), a sales order confirmation (from them) and an invoice (from them), all of which might have made reference to which jurisdiction any disputes would be heard in.
Typically a British company would specify English law heard in London, and a Belgian company Belgian law in Brussels. Obviously you would prefer English law since they'd have to come here to do something about it.
Whatever was the last document that had terms and conditions on it will be the one that rules in this case, as all documents can be deemed to have been accepted (since you paid the invoice).
What do all of those documents say?
-edit-
after reading the bottom post again I see that you can't find provision of their Ts and Cs at any point. Did your PO make reference to your own Ts and Cs? Do they mention where disputes should be heard?
Their Belgium technical guy wrote back in broken English saying when we purchase they issue their terms as overriding with each purchase order. Their invoice doesn't show these.
Purchasing said they had nothing back from them with terms and conditions when they ordered. I asked their guy for a copy and evidence of these terms and he has failed to answer the point or provide any copy of these purchase terms.
In that absence I assume our terms will be the ones as no contracts were signed. We agreed to their pricing after they priced our application matrix.
Here is the details, I have asked our op's director of he has a data sheet for it.
Description
PARASILICO SANITAIR N is a non-toxic, solvent-free, low modulus multipurpose one component silicone sealant (RTV-1), based on a neutral oxime curing system.
Application
PARASILICO SANITAIR N has been especially formulated for all types of sanitary applications and rooms with high humidity such as bathrooms, kitchens, etc. It is also suitable for the bonding of glass windows, lighting domes and glass bricks, etc. Has an adhesive strength on most dry and clean surfaces such as glass, aluminium, ceramic tiles, armed polyester, ABS, hard polystyrene, brass, steel, stainless and anodised steel, etc.
Description
PARASILICO SANITAIR N is a non-toxic, solvent-free, low modulus multipurpose one component silicone sealant (RTV-1), based on a neutral oxime curing system.
Application
PARASILICO SANITAIR N has been especially formulated for all types of sanitary applications and rooms with high humidity such as bathrooms, kitchens, etc. It is also suitable for the bonding of glass windows, lighting domes and glass bricks, etc. Has an adhesive strength on most dry and clean surfaces such as glass, aluminium, ceramic tiles, armed polyester, ABS, hard polystyrene, brass, steel, stainless and anodised steel, etc.
Drumroll said:
lots of companies will delay paying invoices if something has gone into dispute. In fact with tender prices being so low and payment dates being extended it is often the only way for some companies to keep their heads above water.
Recent example our company usually trades at 30days from invoice, but the company we are supplying won't get paid from the main contractor for 90 days. The only way the company we are supplying can keep afloat is to put our invoice in query, for any reason they can. Just so they can get some money in from other contracts and survive.
The way I read your post, it seems like your feel this is a routine situation, but it's worth pointing out that, as read, your client has knowingly signed a contract which would render their business insolvent. If so, this is wrongful trading and a civil offence with potentially serious implications for the directors of your client company, as in "lose their house" serious.Recent example our company usually trades at 30days from invoice, but the company we are supplying won't get paid from the main contractor for 90 days. The only way the company we are supplying can keep afloat is to put our invoice in query, for any reason they can. Just so they can get some money in from other contracts and survive.
roofer said:
Are they currently advertising product with performance spec ?
Got hold of a copy of the data sheet and says nothing about uv light.Its does mention tooling but not tooling agents, just says with DL100 or tooling under that heading.
Edited by surveyor_101 on Thursday 4th August 13:17
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