Driving Licence Totting Up System Advice
Discussion
Unless you have particularly heart wrenching reasons why it would harshly affect people other than yourself then I think you're on a loser with this one.
Although there was a newspaper article recently about a large number of people still driving with well in excess of 12 points.... find out what they said and say that?
Although there was a newspaper article recently about a large number of people still driving with well in excess of 12 points.... find out what they said and say that?
Probably be required to attend court to be banned in person. This avoids you still driving and saying you never knew you had been banned. Starts immediately so don't drive to court.
Others have suggested keeping your licence. Google "exceptional hardship" and see if you meet the test.
Others have suggested keeping your licence. Google "exceptional hardship" and see if you meet the test.
.R2D2 said:
Hi agtlaw, can you give more information on number 2 please?
See http://www.counsel.direct/news/loss-employment-exc...Edited by agtlaw on Wednesday 17th August 11:01
agtlaw said:
R0G said:
The reason some have more than 12 points on licence is because they got a few 3 points in one go so only 3 counts
Example - 4 bald tyres at one stop = 12 points but only 3 points count for totting up
I love these made up facts.Example - 4 bald tyres at one stop = 12 points but only 3 points count for totting up
agtlaw said:
R0G said:
The reason some have more than 12 points on licence is because they got a few 3 points in one go so only 3 counts
Example - 4 bald tyres at one stop = 12 points but only 3 points count for totting up
I love these made up facts.Example - 4 bald tyres at one stop = 12 points but only 3 points count for totting up
RTA 1991 S28(4)
Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that if the convictions are on different occasions the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).
I was under the impression that this wouldn't apply to speeding through two cameras (because there is time between the offences) but being stopped for bald tyres would appear to be covered?
(Though of course this wouldn't lead to anyone going over 12 points in one go, because they'd only get 3).
Edited by sim72 on Wednesday 17th August 21:32
R0G said:
agtlaw said:
R0G said:
The reason some have more than 12 points on licence is because they got a few 3 points in one go so only 3 counts
Example - 4 bald tyres at one stop = 12 points but only 3 points count for totting up
I love these made up facts.Example - 4 bald tyres at one stop = 12 points but only 3 points count for totting up
Multiple endorsable offences committed on the same occasion will nearly always result in only one lot of points being given in relation the most serious offence. See s.28(4) RTOA 1988.
The lesser offences result in no points not "special" non totting-up points.
The reason that people are still driving with more than 12 points on their licence is because they, or their lawyer, managed to convince the court that a disqualification would result in exceptional hardship.
Cat
The actual reason that drivers accrue many more than 12 points but are able to continue driving is because the driver satisfied a condition in section 35 RTOA 1988.
My experience is that this happens when multiple offences are dealt with on one occasion. For example, a driver has 6 points. They change address. DVLA isn't informed. Several NIPs go unanswered. Driver is convicted, for example, 3 offences. 3 x 6 = 18. Total points endorsed = 24. Mitigating circumstances / exceptional hardship found not to disqualify. The thing you said about only some counting is utter nonsense. Made up.
The IAM made a FOI about drivers with numerous penalty points. The worst five offenders were identifed as follows:
• 51 points holder (Oxford): provisional licence holder, three speeding offences in 30mph zone, seven offences of not providing driver details. Not disqualified
• 42 points holder (Basildon): seven offences, all of which were for failing to report driver details. Previously held points for speeding including one at 109mph. Not disqualified from driving as magistrates accepted mitigating circumstances including ‘extreme hardship’ through loss of income. Not disqualified
• 42 points holder (Liverpool): currently seven counts on record, including two of speeding in 30mph areas and five of not reporting driver of vehicle. Not disqualified
• 39 points holder (Wigan): 13 counts of exceeding the speed limit for a goods vehicle. Not known if this driver has been disqualified
• 38 points holder (Burnley): 10 counts of speeding in 30mph areas. Not disqualified
The common theme in these cases is that multiple offences were dealt with on one occasion. One conviction for many offences.
Your example about 4 bald tyres demonstrates that you are confused about the section 35 provisions and section 28(4). You're totally confused about the endorsement in any event - as the thing you mentioned about 12 points but only 3 counting for 'totting up' is nonsense.
My experience is that this happens when multiple offences are dealt with on one occasion. For example, a driver has 6 points. They change address. DVLA isn't informed. Several NIPs go unanswered. Driver is convicted, for example, 3 offences. 3 x 6 = 18. Total points endorsed = 24. Mitigating circumstances / exceptional hardship found not to disqualify. The thing you said about only some counting is utter nonsense. Made up.
The IAM made a FOI about drivers with numerous penalty points. The worst five offenders were identifed as follows:
• 51 points holder (Oxford): provisional licence holder, three speeding offences in 30mph zone, seven offences of not providing driver details. Not disqualified
• 42 points holder (Basildon): seven offences, all of which were for failing to report driver details. Previously held points for speeding including one at 109mph. Not disqualified from driving as magistrates accepted mitigating circumstances including ‘extreme hardship’ through loss of income. Not disqualified
• 42 points holder (Liverpool): currently seven counts on record, including two of speeding in 30mph areas and five of not reporting driver of vehicle. Not disqualified
• 39 points holder (Wigan): 13 counts of exceeding the speed limit for a goods vehicle. Not known if this driver has been disqualified
• 38 points holder (Burnley): 10 counts of speeding in 30mph areas. Not disqualified
The common theme in these cases is that multiple offences were dealt with on one occasion. One conviction for many offences.
Your example about 4 bald tyres demonstrates that you are confused about the section 35 provisions and section 28(4). You're totally confused about the endorsement in any event - as the thing you mentioned about 12 points but only 3 counting for 'totting up' is nonsense.
Edited by agtlaw on Wednesday 17th August 22:09
sim72 said:
Is this out of date then, or am I misreading it?
RTA 1991 S28(4)
Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that if the convictions are on different occasions the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).
I was under the impression that this wouldn't apply to speeding through two cameras (because there is time between the offences) but being stopped for bald tyres would appear to be covered?
(Though of course this wouldn't lead to anyone going over 12 points in one go, because they'd only get 3).
You probably mean section 28(4) RTOA 1988. N.b. the 1991 Act is the enabling provision. Also see s. 28(5) of the 1988 Act - which allows the court to disapply the rule where "it thinks fit."RTA 1991 S28(4)
Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that if the convictions are on different occasions the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).
I was under the impression that this wouldn't apply to speeding through two cameras (because there is time between the offences) but being stopped for bald tyres would appear to be covered?
(Though of course this wouldn't lead to anyone going over 12 points in one go, because they'd only get 3).
Each case will depend on its facts. In Johnson v Finbow (1983), Justices were wrong to find that failing to stop after an accident and then failing to report the accident within 24 hours were not offences committed "on the same occasion." In Johnston v Over (1985) the defendant had two uninsured vehicles on the road, and was swapping parts between the two. Justices endorsed penalty points for each offence, but on appeal it was held that the offences were committed "on the same occasion."
The sentiment expressed in your last sentence is completely correct as there is no special category of invisible points. First time I've heard that one.
Edited by agtlaw on Wednesday 17th August 22:15
sim72 said:
Is this out of date then, or am I misreading it?
RTA 1991 S28(4)
Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that if the convictions are on different occasions the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).
I was under the impression that this wouldn't apply to speeding through two cameras (because there is time between the offences) but being stopped for bald tyres would appear to be covered?
(Though of course this wouldn't lead to anyone going over 12 points in one go, because they'd only get 3).
Real world example. D is charged with:RTA 1991 S28(4)
Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that if the convictions are on different occasions the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).
I was under the impression that this wouldn't apply to speeding through two cameras (because there is time between the offences) but being stopped for bald tyres would appear to be covered?
(Though of course this wouldn't lead to anyone going over 12 points in one go, because they'd only get 3).
Edited by sim72 on Wednesday 17th August 21:32
1) No insurance
2) Careless driving
3) Failing to stop after an accident
4) Failing to report an accident
The offences all arise from one 'hit and run' accident. D will plead guilty to everything. Assume D has a clean licence. Assume the court has ruled out a ban. What is the minimum number of penalty points that could be endorsed? What is the maximum number of penalty points that could be endorsed? What is the realistic outcome in terms of penalty points?
First correct answer wins a cookie.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff