Fatal Collision -Do the local authority have a duty of care?
Discussion
Evening all,
Unfortunaltey on Friday night my sister was killed in a RTC, basically a guy managed to lose control of his focus and be on the wrong side of the road, completely wiping out my sister who was doing nothing wrong, she was killed instantly, her two daughters in the back are luckily ok.
The police have arrested a guy on death by dangerous driving and he's been bailed, who knows if they'll manage to make a case suitable for the charge to the CPS.
We'll obviously be carrying out a PI claim too, some how we need to ensure the girls will be cared for, either their dad will have to give up work or a carer/nanny sorted I guess.
However, in the media reports it's come to light that this road has had around 8 fatalities in the last 6 years, that's a pretty shocking stat, and yet there are NO warning signs for it being dangerous or any special surfaces etc basically NOTHING proactive has been done in an effort to improve the safety of this bit of road.
Surely the local authority have a duty of care to ensure the safety of road users? I'm not expecting to get anywhere with any sort of claim against them, but what my sister would have done is ensured the road was made safer and no one would die on this section of road again.
Thoughts?
Unfortunaltey on Friday night my sister was killed in a RTC, basically a guy managed to lose control of his focus and be on the wrong side of the road, completely wiping out my sister who was doing nothing wrong, she was killed instantly, her two daughters in the back are luckily ok.
The police have arrested a guy on death by dangerous driving and he's been bailed, who knows if they'll manage to make a case suitable for the charge to the CPS.
We'll obviously be carrying out a PI claim too, some how we need to ensure the girls will be cared for, either their dad will have to give up work or a carer/nanny sorted I guess.
However, in the media reports it's come to light that this road has had around 8 fatalities in the last 6 years, that's a pretty shocking stat, and yet there are NO warning signs for it being dangerous or any special surfaces etc basically NOTHING proactive has been done in an effort to improve the safety of this bit of road.
Surely the local authority have a duty of care to ensure the safety of road users? I'm not expecting to get anywhere with any sort of claim against them, but what my sister would have done is ensured the road was made safer and no one would die on this section of road again.
Thoughts?
EddyP said:
Evening all,
Unfortunaltey on Friday night my sister was killed in a RTC, basically a guy managed to lose control of his focus and be on the wrong side of the road, completely wiping out my sister who was doing nothing wrong, she was killed instantly, her two daughters in the back are luckily ok.
The police have arrested a guy on death by dangerous driving and he's been bailed, who knows if they'll manage to make a case suitable for the charge to the CPS.
We'll obviously be carrying out a PI claim too, some how we need to ensure the girls will be cared for, either their dad will have to give up work or a carer/nanny sorted I guess.
However, in the media reports it's come to light that this road has had around 8 fatalities in the last 6 years, that's a pretty shocking stat, and yet there are NO warning signs for it being dangerous or any special surfaces etc basically NOTHING proactive has been done in an effort to improve the safety of this bit of road.
Surely the local authority have a duty of care to ensure the safety of road users? I'm not expecting to get anywhere with any sort of claim against them, but what my sister would have done is ensured the road was made safer and no one would die on this section of road again.
Thoughts?
Firstly, I'm sorry for your loss. I have some idea how you're feeling now, as 8 years ago I lost one of my oldest and closest friends in a car accident. It's not the same as family though I'm sure.Unfortunaltey on Friday night my sister was killed in a RTC, basically a guy managed to lose control of his focus and be on the wrong side of the road, completely wiping out my sister who was doing nothing wrong, she was killed instantly, her two daughters in the back are luckily ok.
The police have arrested a guy on death by dangerous driving and he's been bailed, who knows if they'll manage to make a case suitable for the charge to the CPS.
We'll obviously be carrying out a PI claim too, some how we need to ensure the girls will be cared for, either their dad will have to give up work or a carer/nanny sorted I guess.
However, in the media reports it's come to light that this road has had around 8 fatalities in the last 6 years, that's a pretty shocking stat, and yet there are NO warning signs for it being dangerous or any special surfaces etc basically NOTHING proactive has been done in an effort to improve the safety of this bit of road.
Surely the local authority have a duty of care to ensure the safety of road users? I'm not expecting to get anywhere with any sort of claim against them, but what my sister would have done is ensured the road was made safer and no one would die on this section of road again.
Thoughts?
I don't know of the legal responsibilities, but maybe a good start, with a view to actually getting something changed, would be to speak to local media outlets, gauge if they would consider running a piece regarding the perpetual nature of accidents on the stretch, with nothing being done about it.
As you alluded, if it can save anyone else experiencing the same pain.....
Firstly and above all else - I'm sorry for your loss, I can't comprehend how hard it must be to lose a sibling.
My advice would be to take a pause and focus on your family for now and revisit the road safety aspect in a few months.
When you do revisit, your local councillor (councillor first as your potential advocate and then your MP), the local counciland the police (through family liaison?) might be a good starting point (I am not an expert).
My advice would be to take a pause and focus on your family for now and revisit the road safety aspect in a few months.
When you do revisit, your local councillor (councillor first as your potential advocate and then your MP), the local counciland the police (through family liaison?) might be a good starting point (I am not an expert).
Sorry to hear off your loss, it is difficult to understand how you must feel.
Personally I am not sure whether the local authority has a duty of care in this instance as it will depend on whether the circumstances are similar to other events etc.
Certainly it was rumoured that after a series of accidents on a road near use the Police carried out a skid resistance test and promptly put the police car doing the test in the hedge. The road was resurfaced that night.
I think you might need to make a Freedom of Information request to see what reports the Council have received on the road and then decide how to proceed.
Personally I am not sure whether the local authority has a duty of care in this instance as it will depend on whether the circumstances are similar to other events etc.
Certainly it was rumoured that after a series of accidents on a road near use the Police carried out a skid resistance test and promptly put the police car doing the test in the hedge. The road was resurfaced that night.
I think you might need to make a Freedom of Information request to see what reports the Council have received on the road and then decide how to proceed.
I've a bit of experience in road safety but not so much in a rural environment which I guess this is.
Firstly, I’m sorry for your loss. If it was me I would want to check the validity of that figure as this would be high enough to trigger some intervention by the council but it is not unheard of for people to exaggerate a problem. Most councils use KSI (Killed or Seriously injured) so it could be they were serious accidents. Can you post up the road so I can check?
Next, when you are ready request the STATS 19 information for the stretch for the last 6 years (through FOI if you don’t get anywhere speaking to the road safety team). You can then read the police descriptions of the collisions. Potentially all 8 fatal collisions could be different, therefore it would be very difficult to provide an engineering solution.
However “knee jerk” reactions like lowering the speed limit (especially on PH!) aren’t popular! For a council to provide a proper engineering solutions a pattern is needed but so often on this very site people complain about councils narrowing roads, installing traffic islands, general traffic calming, lowering speed limits etc. it puts them in a difficult position.
Firstly, I’m sorry for your loss. If it was me I would want to check the validity of that figure as this would be high enough to trigger some intervention by the council but it is not unheard of for people to exaggerate a problem. Most councils use KSI (Killed or Seriously injured) so it could be they were serious accidents. Can you post up the road so I can check?
Next, when you are ready request the STATS 19 information for the stretch for the last 6 years (through FOI if you don’t get anywhere speaking to the road safety team). You can then read the police descriptions of the collisions. Potentially all 8 fatal collisions could be different, therefore it would be very difficult to provide an engineering solution.
However “knee jerk” reactions like lowering the speed limit (especially on PH!) aren’t popular! For a council to provide a proper engineering solutions a pattern is needed but so often on this very site people complain about councils narrowing roads, installing traffic islands, general traffic calming, lowering speed limits etc. it puts them in a difficult position.
Type R Tom said:
I've a bit of experience in road safety but not so much in a rural environment which I guess this is.
Firstly, I’m sorry for your loss. If it was me I would want to check the validity of that figure as this would be high enough to trigger some intervention by the council but it is not unheard of for people to exaggerate a problem. Most councils use KSI (Killed or Seriously injured) so it could be they were serious accidents. Can you post up the road so I can check?
Next, when you are ready request the STATS 19 information for the stretch for the last 6 years (through FOI if you don’t get anywhere speaking to the road safety team). You can then read the police descriptions of the collisions. Potentially all 8 fatal collisions could be different, therefore it would be very difficult to provide an engineering solution.
However “knee jerk” reactions like lowering the speed limit (especially on PH!) aren’t popular! For a council to provide a proper engineering solutions a pattern is needed but so often on this very site people complain about councils narrowing roads, installing traffic islands, general traffic calming, lowering speed limits etc. it puts them in a difficult position.
Hi TomFirstly, I’m sorry for your loss. If it was me I would want to check the validity of that figure as this would be high enough to trigger some intervention by the council but it is not unheard of for people to exaggerate a problem. Most councils use KSI (Killed or Seriously injured) so it could be they were serious accidents. Can you post up the road so I can check?
Next, when you are ready request the STATS 19 information for the stretch for the last 6 years (through FOI if you don’t get anywhere speaking to the road safety team). You can then read the police descriptions of the collisions. Potentially all 8 fatal collisions could be different, therefore it would be very difficult to provide an engineering solution.
However “knee jerk” reactions like lowering the speed limit (especially on PH!) aren’t popular! For a council to provide a proper engineering solutions a pattern is needed but so often on this very site people complain about councils narrowing roads, installing traffic islands, general traffic calming, lowering speed limits etc. it puts them in a difficult position.
This is the stretch of road:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2866311,-0.87114...
She was traveling in the opposite direction to the street view, he was going in the same direction and just past the telegraph pole was on the wrong side of the road, I've driven that stretch many times and the natural camber of the road and the nature of the corner does make it seem to pull you onto the wrong side.
It's not helped by the edges of the road being in a fairly poor condition which naturally makes people drive in the middle of the road to avoid pot holes etc..
It's fairly narrow through there too.
I don't know what the correct solution is, I simply want to explore the history to start with.
You'd think even some cats eyes would help though? This happened at 6.45pm so it was dark, with the hill there could it be the other driver was dazzled and become disorientated? I don't know.
A very sad story but I admire your desire to make something positive come of it.
Are you able to put up a google maps link so we can see the road.
Councils always claim lack of money and the hundreds of cars that negotiate the hazard each day without crashing. Their are undoubtedly 100s of road designs which catch out the unwary, the problem is any change has to be done to what is regarded as the current perfect standard. So where cutting back a hedge by 4 feet may 90% solve the problem they wont spend £500 and do it. They don't have the £1.2m to do the designed scheme, partialy because they have spent £1m on feasibility and designing 17 schemes in that council.
Good luck with your endeavor.
Are you able to put up a google maps link so we can see the road.
Councils always claim lack of money and the hundreds of cars that negotiate the hazard each day without crashing. Their are undoubtedly 100s of road designs which catch out the unwary, the problem is any change has to be done to what is regarded as the current perfect standard. So where cutting back a hedge by 4 feet may 90% solve the problem they wont spend £500 and do it. They don't have the £1.2m to do the designed scheme, partialy because they have spent £1m on feasibility and designing 17 schemes in that council.
Good luck with your endeavor.
i drive on rural roads late at night and in the morning, and lots of hills. sometimes i have to stop as new car headlights are very bright transitioning over bumpy ground,and i am pretty much blinded. it does help to have cats eys and at the least white lines at side of road for orientation.
very sad for your sister i really hope something positive comes from this.
very sad for your sister i really hope something positive comes from this.
Looks like a perfectly safe bit or rural road to me, the fact you say he was on the wrong side of the road suggests he "Probably" was on his phone or distracted & or not paying attention, see it every day out driving as I'm sure most of us do.
Road engineering won't solve that problem
Road engineering won't solve that problem
Having gone back on the Google pic to look towards the pole from the other party's direction of travel it looks like the road bends to the left & may have hidden your sister from view.
Prior to the bend it is a long straight country road presumably NSL 60.
Do you know if the road was wet or dry at the time and if there was anything on the road such as mud?
Is the other driver local and/or familiar with the road?
Without the result of the RTC investigation including the vehicle examiner's report it's difficult to give any meaningful comment, but I wonder if excess speed on the approach to the bend & trying to straighten out the bend/loss of control/loss of traction as a consequence of the speed played a part.
Prior to the bend it is a long straight country road presumably NSL 60.
Do you know if the road was wet or dry at the time and if there was anything on the road such as mud?
Is the other driver local and/or familiar with the road?
Without the result of the RTC investigation including the vehicle examiner's report it's difficult to give any meaningful comment, but I wonder if excess speed on the approach to the bend & trying to straighten out the bend/loss of control/loss of traction as a consequence of the speed played a part.
Edited by paintman on Wednesday 16th November 08:47
Thanks for your condolences guys.
Road engineering can make any road safer, it just depends on how far you go and what you have there to start with, with this particular road there's very little there, so as simple as warning signs or cats eyes would potentially improve it.
I do know more about the collision and investigation however won't be posting it in the public domain as I don't want to risk anything with the court case that could be a year or so away.
Excess speed may have played a part, that's unknown currently, however we do know that she was killed instantly, so the closing speed must have been pretty damn high.
cptsideways said:
Looks like a perfectly safe bit or rural road to me, the fact you say he was on the wrong side of the road suggests he "Probably" was on his phone or distracted & or not paying attention, see it every day out driving as I'm sure most of us do.
Road engineering won't solve that problem
Sorry chap but I'm afraid I don't agree with you here, I've driven that road many times, it's not as safe as it could be, yes its a rural road but it's an extremely busy rural road, it's a main bus route, HGVs use it, it links a large village to Northampton, it's not like we're talking about a road that maybe sees 100 cars a day.Road engineering won't solve that problem
Road engineering can make any road safer, it just depends on how far you go and what you have there to start with, with this particular road there's very little there, so as simple as warning signs or cats eyes would potentially improve it.
I do know more about the collision and investigation however won't be posting it in the public domain as I don't want to risk anything with the court case that could be a year or so away.
Excess speed may have played a part, that's unknown currently, however we do know that she was killed instantly, so the closing speed must have been pretty damn high.
Really sorry to hear about this OP.
There will obviously have been a full police investigation into how and why the collision happened but that will only be released once the other driver has been prosecuted and your (future) solicitors will easily be able to get hold of this. This may or may not make reference to the road being in a dangerous condition and/or raise safety concerns if they are relevant in terms of the road itself so that may be a good starting point.
There will obviously have been a full police investigation into how and why the collision happened but that will only be released once the other driver has been prosecuted and your (future) solicitors will easily be able to get hold of this. This may or may not make reference to the road being in a dangerous condition and/or raise safety concerns if they are relevant in terms of the road itself so that may be a good starting point.
My sympathy for your loss. For your nieces to lose their mother in such a shocking way must be heartbreaking.
According to the local press there have been 90 recorded RTCs on that 1.5 mile stretch of road over the last decade.
EddyP said:
Excess speed may have played a part, that's unknown currently, however we do know that she was killed instantly, so the closing speed must have been pretty damn high.
I don't know the road, but looking at the approach to the bend - https://goo.gl/maps/poK7viUNo9E2 - there appears to be a crest with the road dropping away after it (bear in mind that the Google camera perspective is quite a lot higher than the normal driving position of any car). Excess speed in those circumstances could easily cause a car to go light when negotiating the bend resulting in an offside excursion with the driver being unable to take corrective action in time to prevent a collision with someone coming the other way. Equally a distraction (texting/mobile phone use) could have a similar resultAccording to the local press there have been 90 recorded RTCs on that 1.5 mile stretch of road over the last decade.
Firstly so sorry for your family's loss ,difficult times ahead .
I complained about a junction that I use locally, in that because of the profile of the road it is impossible when driving any commercial vehicle with a closed body , to see traffic approaching from the left .
The reply from the authorities was nothing would be done until the number of fatalities or injury RTC had passed a threshold.
Such a sad way of getting things done . Especially considering that each fatality costs the public purse something like a million pounds .
I complained about a junction that I use locally, in that because of the profile of the road it is impossible when driving any commercial vehicle with a closed body , to see traffic approaching from the left .
The reply from the authorities was nothing would be done until the number of fatalities or injury RTC had passed a threshold.
Such a sad way of getting things done . Especially considering that each fatality costs the public purse something like a million pounds .
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