Towing an unregistered race car with an A frame
Discussion
Hello!
I recently had a long conversation with a work colleague when an incident meant we had to recover our Caterham type race car from a display.
The vehicle has never been registered, obviously no tax, MOT, Insurance etc and currently has no engine.
Please note the vehicle has safely and legally been recovered. so I'm not looking for one line opinions here but to be pointed in the right direction.
One of the solutions was to recover the car by A frame, I said this would be illegal my colleague disagreed.
I previously (and Dubiously) recovered a project vehicle for a friend and looked into this some years ago and was a s perplexed by the answers I found as I am today,
i understand if an A frame is NOT being used for a breakdown situation the the frame and vehicle become a trailer with the legal requirements therein,
Over 750kg Brakes must be fitted.... However if brakes are fitted to the wheels (Which they are) then they must operate??
I have read all the relevant documents and this seems quite clear(Ish) and posters in other threads have made links available which all say the same as the governments own website.
However I keep seeing mention of the fact that if any wheels of the vehicle touch the road they must be Insured,taxed etc... I cannot find mention of this anywhere, Does anyone have a link to an official site that stipulates this? As if the vehicle when fitted with a frame becomes a "trailer" then surely these rules do not apply. A trailer does not require an MOT or insurance.
There seem to be a few threads where people have referenced actual court based decisions Example Vs Example etc but I do not know how to access that info and even then the decisions given seem to conflict.
Are the rules of using a motor vehicle under its own power and it becoming a "Trailer" being confused?
Im aware of the fact that once the vehicle is disconnected from the prime mover then it returns to being a motor vehicle and the tax and mot laws come into effect once again.
Thanks for reading!
I recently had a long conversation with a work colleague when an incident meant we had to recover our Caterham type race car from a display.
The vehicle has never been registered, obviously no tax, MOT, Insurance etc and currently has no engine.
Please note the vehicle has safely and legally been recovered. so I'm not looking for one line opinions here but to be pointed in the right direction.
One of the solutions was to recover the car by A frame, I said this would be illegal my colleague disagreed.
I previously (and Dubiously) recovered a project vehicle for a friend and looked into this some years ago and was a s perplexed by the answers I found as I am today,
i understand if an A frame is NOT being used for a breakdown situation the the frame and vehicle become a trailer with the legal requirements therein,
Over 750kg Brakes must be fitted.... However if brakes are fitted to the wheels (Which they are) then they must operate??
I have read all the relevant documents and this seems quite clear(Ish) and posters in other threads have made links available which all say the same as the governments own website.
However I keep seeing mention of the fact that if any wheels of the vehicle touch the road they must be Insured,taxed etc... I cannot find mention of this anywhere, Does anyone have a link to an official site that stipulates this? As if the vehicle when fitted with a frame becomes a "trailer" then surely these rules do not apply. A trailer does not require an MOT or insurance.
There seem to be a few threads where people have referenced actual court based decisions Example Vs Example etc but I do not know how to access that info and even then the decisions given seem to conflict.
Are the rules of using a motor vehicle under its own power and it becoming a "Trailer" being confused?
Im aware of the fact that once the vehicle is disconnected from the prime mover then it returns to being a motor vehicle and the tax and mot laws come into effect once again.
Thanks for reading!
Dubmaster77 said:
One of the solutions was to recover the car by A frame, I said this would be illegal my colleague disagreed.
I'm with you.Dubmaster77 said:
i understand if an A frame is NOT being used for a breakdown situation the the frame and vehicle become a trailer with the legal requirements therein,
Over 750kg Brakes must be fitted.... However if brakes are fitted to the wheels (Which they are) then they must operate??
Yep. And that's 750kg max laden weight, not kerb weight. If the Caterham doesn't have a VIN plate, then gawd knows what they'd do - either take the MAM for the A-frame or, old-trailer-styley, add up the load ratings for the tyres. I dunno what the GVW of a Caterham is, but if it's <say> 575kg kerb, then you'd be hard pushed to put two grown men in and stay under 750kg.Over 750kg Brakes must be fitted.... However if brakes are fitted to the wheels (Which they are) then they must operate??
Dubmaster77 said:
However I keep seeing mention of the fact that if any wheels of the vehicle touch the road they must be Insured,taxed etc... I cannot find mention of this anywhere
If it's not going to be regarded as "a trailer" (750kg+ MAM, all wheels braked by tow vehicle) then it CAN be towed as a road-legal vehicle being emergency recovered. But it's gotta be legal in its own right - and there's caps on max speed, distance.That's AIUI - I'm sure I've read something official in the past, but my google-fu is lacking atm.
TooMany2cvs said:
Dubmaster77 said:
One of the solutions was to recover the car by A frame, I said this would be illegal my colleague disagreed.
I'm with you.Dubmaster77 said:
i understand if an A frame is NOT being used for a breakdown situation the the frame and vehicle become a trailer with the legal requirements therein,
Over 750kg Brakes must be fitted.... However if brakes are fitted to the wheels (Which they are) then they must operate??
Yep. And that's 750kg max laden weight, not kerb weight. If the Caterham doesn't have a VIN plate, then gawd knows what they'd do - either take the MAM for the A-frame or, old-trailer-styley, add up the load ratings for the tyres. I dunno what the GVW of a Caterham is, but if it's <say> 575kg kerb, then you'd be hard pushed to put two grown men in and stay under 750kg.Over 750kg Brakes must be fitted.... However if brakes are fitted to the wheels (Which they are) then they must operate??
Unless I've misunderstood your statement I can't tow a trailer rated for 3.5ton with my car rated for towing 2ton.
I used to be of the same opinion, but I recently read somewhere (possibly here) that its kerb weight of the trailer against the rated towing weight of the car, not the rate weight of the trailer against the rated towing weight of the car.
Regarding trailer weights you need to dig out the trailer towing thread but in a nutshell, and excluding recent car licences (I think), it's the actual weight of the trailer that matters. Not the kerb weight or the gross plated weight.
Regarding towing a caterham, once it's on an a frame with a trailer board attached as far as I understand it, it's a trailer. It also weighs under 750kg so I would think it was legal without brakes. That said, you used to be able to get a device that mechanically activated the brake pedal in a car being towed in this fashion.
You need to get hold of the PHer R0G, he's the expert on this.
Regarding towing a caterham, once it's on an a frame with a trailer board attached as far as I understand it, it's a trailer. It also weighs under 750kg so I would think it was legal without brakes. That said, you used to be able to get a device that mechanically activated the brake pedal in a car being towed in this fashion.
You need to get hold of the PHer R0G, he's the expert on this.
LOL! see what I mean, There seems to be no defined answer.
Thanks for the replies guys, The car itself is not a Caterham but a 7 style copy and I do not believe it is plated, I will have to check, I read somewhere (here) I think that the GVW for a Caterham is 950kg putting it into the braked category, However the I think i am also right in thinking that if a trailer wheel is braked, The that brake must work to be compliant. so even if under 750kg the brakes would need to be operated.
Hopefully a definitive answer will be along surely.
Thanks for the replies guys, The car itself is not a Caterham but a 7 style copy and I do not believe it is plated, I will have to check, I read somewhere (here) I think that the GVW for a Caterham is 950kg putting it into the braked category, However the I think i am also right in thinking that if a trailer wheel is braked, The that brake must work to be compliant. so even if under 750kg the brakes would need to be operated.
Hopefully a definitive answer will be along surely.
SteveR1979 said:
Are you sure about that 2CV???
Unless I've misunderstood your statement I can't tow a trailer rated for 3.5ton with my car rated for towing 2ton.
I used to be of the same opinion, but I recently read somewhere (possibly here) that its kerb weight of the trailer against the rated towing weight of the car, not the rate weight of the trailer against the rated towing weight of the car.
If you have BE licence you can tow any trailer with an actual weight up to the maximum towing capacity of your tow vehicle, even if the trailer is plated to carry more. If you only have B licence you can drive a car and trailer combination up to 3500kgs GROSS WEIGHT. (or a trailer of up to 750kgs gross if your tow vehicle is up to 3500kgs gross)Unless I've misunderstood your statement I can't tow a trailer rated for 3.5ton with my car rated for towing 2ton.
I used to be of the same opinion, but I recently read somewhere (possibly here) that its kerb weight of the trailer against the rated towing weight of the car, not the rate weight of the trailer against the rated towing weight of the car.
This link may help: http://passyourtrailertest.co.uk/what-can-i-tow/
Dubmaster77 said:
LOL! see what I mean, There seems to be no defined answer.
Thanks for the replies guys, The car itself is not a Caterham but a 7 style copy and I do not believe it is plated, I will have to check, I read somewhere (here) I think that the GVW for a Caterham is 950kg putting it into the braked category, However the I think i am also right in thinking that if a trailer wheel is braked, The that brake must work to be compliant. so even if under 750kg the brakes would need to be operated.
Hopefully a definitive answer will be along surely.
There is a defined answer, it's on the thread I mentioned earlier. It's taken some work to put all the info together but it's there. Thanks for the replies guys, The car itself is not a Caterham but a 7 style copy and I do not believe it is plated, I will have to check, I read somewhere (here) I think that the GVW for a Caterham is 950kg putting it into the braked category, However the I think i am also right in thinking that if a trailer wheel is braked, The that brake must work to be compliant. so even if under 750kg the brakes would need to be operated.
Hopefully a definitive answer will be along surely.
A frame or towing dolly is only legal if used to recover a disabled vehicle to a place of safety
or if its made so as to operate brakes on every axle of the vehicle, hence you see people with motorhomes towing an adapted car.... I think even if its under 750 kg if it has a braking system it has to function , or you are van dealer then the police won't bother you even if you do excess of the speed limit in the outside lane of the M6!!!!! mind who would want that much paperwork on a wet friday afternoon ????
or if its made so as to operate brakes on every axle of the vehicle, hence you see people with motorhomes towing an adapted car.... I think even if its under 750 kg if it has a braking system it has to function , or you are van dealer then the police won't bother you even if you do excess of the speed limit in the outside lane of the M6!!!!! mind who would want that much paperwork on a wet friday afternoon ????
SteveR1979 said:
Unless I've misunderstood your statement I can't tow a trailer rated for 3.5ton with my car rated for towing 2ton.
I used to be of the same opinion, but I recently read somewhere (possibly here) that its kerb weight of the trailer against the rated towing weight of the car, not the rate weight of the trailer against the rated towing weight of the car.
It is.I used to be of the same opinion, but I recently read somewhere (possibly here) that its kerb weight of the trailer against the rated towing weight of the car, not the rate weight of the trailer against the rated towing weight of the car.
But for the C&U requirement for a trailer to have automatically-applied brakes, it's 750kg MAM.
Super Slo Mo said:
Dubmaster77 said:
LOL! see what I mean, There seems to be no defined answer.
Thanks for the replies guys, The car itself is not a Caterham but a 7 style copy and I do not believe it is plated, I will have to check, I read somewhere (here) I think that the GVW for a Caterham is 950kg putting it into the braked category, However the I think i am also right in thinking that if a trailer wheel is braked, The that brake must work to be compliant. so even if under 750kg the brakes would need to be operated.
Hopefully a definitive answer will be along surely.
There is a defined answer, it's on the thread I mentioned earlier. It's taken some work to put all the info together but it's there. Thanks for the replies guys, The car itself is not a Caterham but a 7 style copy and I do not believe it is plated, I will have to check, I read somewhere (here) I think that the GVW for a Caterham is 950kg putting it into the braked category, However the I think i am also right in thinking that if a trailer wheel is braked, The that brake must work to be compliant. so even if under 750kg the brakes would need to be operated.
Hopefully a definitive answer will be along surely.
With all due respect, I have spent several hours looking at kinds of threads with people arguing back and forth, I'm looking for a definitive link that states the legal requirements for the vehicle being towed.
R0G said:
What licence do you have - B or B+E ?
As no weight plate what is the total of the 4 tyre load ratings ?
Trailers over 750 kg MAM must have over-run brakes
Vehicles can be towed with A frames as long as the towing vehicle can operate the brakes on the towed vehicle
Hi, thanks forAs no weight plate what is the total of the 4 tyre load ratings ?
Trailers over 750 kg MAM must have over-run brakes
Vehicles can be towed with A frames as long as the towing vehicle can operate the brakes on the towed vehicle
Your reply, so you are saying if the vehicle is not plated the MAM is worked out from the tyre ratings?
As far as I understand, if a wheel is so equipped with a brake, then that brake must operate regardless of the weight of the trailer, is this correct?
Dubmaster77 said:
so you are saying if the vehicle is not plated the MAM is worked out from the tyre ratings?
That's the way it's done on trailers old enough (pre 1980, IIRC) not to need a VIN plate.Dubmaster77 said:
As far as I understand, if a wheel is so equipped with a brake, then that brake must operate regardless of the weight of the trailer, is this correct?
Yup.All trailers MAM 750kg+ must have brakes. Trailers <750kg MAM can have brakes, but they must work.
The DOT website is quite informative on this topic and there is are links on it to access further help and copies of statutory instruments. I presume you've accessed these?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frame...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frame...
Edited by sparkythecat on Saturday 19th November 12:54
Dubmaster77 said:
Hi, thanks for
Your reply, so you are saying if the vehicle is not plated the MAM is worked out from the tyre ratings?
As far as I understand, if a wheel is so equipped with a brake, then that brake must operate regardless of the weight of the trailer, is this correct?
Anything fitted and made so it works MUST work if on the roadYour reply, so you are saying if the vehicle is not plated the MAM is worked out from the tyre ratings?
As far as I understand, if a wheel is so equipped with a brake, then that brake must operate regardless of the weight of the trailer, is this correct?
Tyre load rating total is used by the authorities to calculate MAM if no plate is fitted
What licence you have = B or BE ?
Dubmaster77 said:
With all due respect, I have spent several hours looking at kinds of threads with people arguing back and forth, I'm looking for a definitive link that states the legal requirements for the vehicle being towed.
Unfortunately the official information is muddy to put it mildly. The OP on the thread I'm thinking of did a sterling job deciphering it all and putting it together in a way that makes reasonable sense.
In the meantime, this might solve your problem.
http://www.smart-tow.com/portable.htm
Super Slo Mo said:
Sorry, I should have made the effort to dig it out. The OP on the thread I'm thinking of did a sterling job deciphering it all and putting it together in a way that makes reasonable sense.
Why apologise? It's not that hard for anyone to find given it's the very first thread (sticky) in SP&L! - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...Red Devil said:
Why apologise? It's not that hard for anyone to find given it's the very first thread (sticky) in SP&L! - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
why not? Doesn't actually do any harm to be conciliatory rather than belligerent does it? Although to be fair had I just linked to the thread in the first place it would have saved me 4 posts 
Hi Thanks again for some of the more constructive replies, I have indeed looked at that thread, which, while informative with relation to types of licence and calculating weights etc it does not in any way specifically cover the towing of a vehicle using an A frame.
My original question is still in relation to the legal status of the car when its tyres are on the queens highway and vehicle taxation etc. while reading any of the towing threads people say the car must be taxed as it is on the highway, I was hoping someone would show me a link to an official piece of legislation stating that fact. I do not believe it exists in the case of using an a frame as the gov web site says they "BELIEVE" when an A frame is attached the vehicle becomes a trailer and those construction and use etc rules apply.
However this is all a moot point as the brakes of the vehicle do not work at all so regardless of its weight it would have to be towed on a trailer as the vehicle is being moved for work purposes not recovery. (Which as stated above the vehicle was recovered in this case by a flat bed recovery truck)
according to the letter of the law it is illegal to tow any vehicle with an A frame unless you have a way of operating the towed vehicles braking system UNLESS you are recovering the vehicle.
There does seem to be plenty of cases where people have been prosecuted for the use of A frames, I am trying to ascertain the facts for my self as this was a request from work, While I can balance my own risk versus reward for private vehicle collection, I do not want to be found on the wrong side of the law doing my job.
My original question is still in relation to the legal status of the car when its tyres are on the queens highway and vehicle taxation etc. while reading any of the towing threads people say the car must be taxed as it is on the highway, I was hoping someone would show me a link to an official piece of legislation stating that fact. I do not believe it exists in the case of using an a frame as the gov web site says they "BELIEVE" when an A frame is attached the vehicle becomes a trailer and those construction and use etc rules apply.
However this is all a moot point as the brakes of the vehicle do not work at all so regardless of its weight it would have to be towed on a trailer as the vehicle is being moved for work purposes not recovery. (Which as stated above the vehicle was recovered in this case by a flat bed recovery truck)
according to the letter of the law it is illegal to tow any vehicle with an A frame unless you have a way of operating the towed vehicles braking system UNLESS you are recovering the vehicle.
There does seem to be plenty of cases where people have been prosecuted for the use of A frames, I am trying to ascertain the facts for my self as this was a request from work, While I can balance my own risk versus reward for private vehicle collection, I do not want to be found on the wrong side of the law doing my job.
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