Disability Law Enforcement
Discussion
So I have been into a local bar with a wheel chair user about a year ago and we had no problem using the disabled facilities.
A year has passed and we visit the same place that's now had a name change and a small spruce up, the separate disabled toilet was a room downstairs and the rest of the toilets are up a steep flight of stairs on the 1st floor.
On this second visit we have now found out that as part of the spruce up they have knocked down the disabled toilet room and have added more tables and chairs. We asked what was going and the manager just said it was the owners decision, we decided to leave.
Does anybody know how we can get something done about this.
A year has passed and we visit the same place that's now had a name change and a small spruce up, the separate disabled toilet was a room downstairs and the rest of the toilets are up a steep flight of stairs on the 1st floor.
On this second visit we have now found out that as part of the spruce up they have knocked down the disabled toilet room and have added more tables and chairs. We asked what was going and the manager just said it was the owners decision, we decided to leave.
Does anybody know how we can get something done about this.
It should be Part M compliant: as said, talk to the council- building control section or whatever the licence section is called.
I actually installed a fully compliant, w.c for a catholic club (pub) recently. the law was incredibly grey in this area- best scenario was it was advisable that they made themselves accessible. but as a private members club and the law not being actually retrospective- not actually required.
but an established pub that had a w.c............. Hmmmmmm I think it should be there.
Nb: its the "equality act" these days-not DDA or anything else.
I actually installed a fully compliant, w.c for a catholic club (pub) recently. the law was incredibly grey in this area- best scenario was it was advisable that they made themselves accessible. but as a private members club and the law not being actually retrospective- not actually required.
but an established pub that had a w.c............. Hmmmmmm I think it should be there.
Nb: its the "equality act" these days-not DDA or anything else.
austinsmirk said:
It should be Part M compliant: as said, talk to the council- building control section or whatever the licence section is called.
I actually installed a fully compliant, w.c for a catholic club (pub) recently. the law was incredibly grey in this area- best scenario was it was advisable that they made themselves accessible. but as a private members club and the law not being actually retrospective- not actually required.
but an established pub that had a w.c............. Hmmmmmm I think it should be there.
Nb: its the "equality act" these days-not DDA or anything else.
Thanks, Just clarify its not an established pub, its a fancy wine bar type thing on a high street in an old video rental shop and its only been there 3/4 years. Must of had planning/building control to set it up/change the usage.I actually installed a fully compliant, w.c for a catholic club (pub) recently. the law was incredibly grey in this area- best scenario was it was advisable that they made themselves accessible. but as a private members club and the law not being actually retrospective- not actually required.
but an established pub that had a w.c............. Hmmmmmm I think it should be there.
Nb: its the "equality act" these days-not DDA or anything else.
I'll give them a call.
There is nothing in the Licensing Act 2003 relating to disabled access, either to a licensed premise, or to facilities within a licensed premise, so your local licensing department won't be able to help.
I know less about planning and building control, but my understanding is that regulations relating to disabled access and disabled facilities relate to new builds (and possibly new extensions) only. If it's an existing building which has had a refurb, I believe there is no legal obligation to install or retain disabled facilities if the operator chooses not to.
Good practice in 2016? Probably not. Illegal? No.
Just vote with your feet & go somewhere else.
I know less about planning and building control, but my understanding is that regulations relating to disabled access and disabled facilities relate to new builds (and possibly new extensions) only. If it's an existing building which has had a refurb, I believe there is no legal obligation to install or retain disabled facilities if the operator chooses not to.
Good practice in 2016? Probably not. Illegal? No.
Just vote with your feet & go somewhere else.
Reg Local said:
There is nothing in the Licensing Act 2003 relating to disabled access, either to a licensed premise, or to facilities within a licensed premise, so your local licensing department won't be able to help.
I didn't suggest that there was, I just advised contact the council issuing the licence as they're the LA who would be most able to assist. I'm fully familiar with the requirements of current disability legislation but it used to be that if all possible attempts were made to provide facilities for disabled customers, the business's obligations were met - that's not the same as having to provide all facilities - but as I said, my knowledge may be out of date hence the advice to contact the relevant council.
Riley Blue said:
Reg Local said:
There is nothing in the Licensing Act 2003 relating to disabled access, either to a licensed premise, or to facilities within a licensed premise, so your local licensing department won't be able to help.
I didn't suggest that there was, I just advised contact the council issuing the licence as they're the LA who would be most able to assist. OP asks if something can be done - the answer, based on the information provided - is unfortunately no.
Reg Local said:
I know less about planning and building control, but my understanding is that regulations relating to disabled access and disabled facilities relate to new builds (and possibly new extensions) only. If it's an existing building which has had a refurb, I believe there is no legal obligation to install or retain disabled facilities if the operator chooses not to.
Any internal changes as part of a change of use or other physical alterations would need Building Regs approval, and that would include Part M compliance so it should have had accessible facilities incorporated. So, the alterations to remove the old WC should have Building regs approval, which is unlikely given the removal of the facility! That said, there is nothing in the B Regs to ensure that those facilities remain in use or operation once the premises has been signed off as 'complete' by the Building Control inspector.As above, you need to look to lodge a complaint under the equalities act as they are no longer providing a reasonable accessible WC provision. BS 8300 covers what is an acceptable technical solution but as a general rule if there are any public WC's, there should be an accessible one.
Reg Local said:
Riley Blue said:
Reg Local said:
There is nothing in the Licensing Act 2003 relating to disabled access, either to a licensed premise, or to facilities within a licensed premise, so your local licensing department won't be able to help.
I didn't suggest that there was, I just advised contact the council issuing the licence as they're the LA who would be most able to assist. OP asks if something can be done - the answer, based on the information provided - is unfortunately no.
Riley Blue said:
Reg Local said:
Riley Blue said:
Reg Local said:
There is nothing in the Licensing Act 2003 relating to disabled access, either to a licensed premise, or to facilities within a licensed premise, so your local licensing department won't be able to help.
I didn't suggest that there was, I just advised contact the council issuing the licence as they're the LA who would be most able to assist. OP asks if something can be done - the answer, based on the information provided - is unfortunately no.
Let's call the whole thing off.
bobtail4x4 said:
everyone is asking about Building Control, what if it was passed off by a private inspector? it happens.
LA building control cant deal with it then.
welcome to the new world.
No, everybody is saying that it is a building control matter as it looks like the original works to remove the accessible WC have been done without any approval from either via LA Building Control or via an Approved Inspector. Any beef you have about 'the new world' is not relevant and neither would approve the removal of an existing accessible WC if it leaves the premises in breach of Approved Doc M.LA building control cant deal with it then.
welcome to the new world.
The OP should either focus on the Equalities Act side of things or (and) notify the Local Authority Building Control that is it suspected that works have been done without approval.
personally any business which doesn't provide such facilites is being very shortsighted with regard to the spending power of the older/disabled community.
its also rubbish to think every disabled person needs/uses or must have a wheelchair. you might need such a facility to change a stoma bag, you might need substantially extra time to clean/prepare for toileting, to cope with a disruptive child, equally the space can be used by a parent to change a child.
in most council areas, there will be disabled groups who complile lists of premises that they can use. All valuable potential customers in an age where we so many businesses fail on the high street.
its also rubbish to think every disabled person needs/uses or must have a wheelchair. you might need such a facility to change a stoma bag, you might need substantially extra time to clean/prepare for toileting, to cope with a disruptive child, equally the space can be used by a parent to change a child.
in most council areas, there will be disabled groups who complile lists of premises that they can use. All valuable potential customers in an age where we so many businesses fail on the high street.
austinsmirk said:
personally any business which doesn't provide such facilites is being very shortsighted with regard to the spending power of the older/disabled community.
its also rubbish to think every disabled person needs/uses or must have a wheelchair. you might need such a facility to change a stoma bag, you might need substantially extra time to clean/prepare for toileting, to cope with a disruptive child, equally the space can be used by a parent to change a child.
in most council areas, there will be disabled groups who complile lists of premises that they can use. All valuable potential customers in an age where we so many businesses fail on the high street.
Yes, all very correct. But, in an age where so many businesses fail on the high street putting toilets upstairs and freeing up retalised area for another couple of tables is often more attractive than the potential lost income from the very small sector of disabled people who do have mobility problems. its also rubbish to think every disabled person needs/uses or must have a wheelchair. you might need such a facility to change a stoma bag, you might need substantially extra time to clean/prepare for toileting, to cope with a disruptive child, equally the space can be used by a parent to change a child.
in most council areas, there will be disabled groups who complile lists of premises that they can use. All valuable potential customers in an age where we so many businesses fail on the high street.
The Surveyor said:
bobtail4x4 said:
everyone is asking about Building Control, what if it was passed off by a private inspector? it happens.
LA building control cant deal with it then.
welcome to the new world.
No, everybody is saying that it is a building control matter as it looks like the original works to remove the accessible WC have been done without any approval from either via LA Building Control or via an Approved Inspector. Any beef you have about 'the new world' is not relevant and neither would approve the removal of an existing accessible WC if it leaves the premises in breach of Approved Doc M.LA building control cant deal with it then.
welcome to the new world.
The OP should either focus on the Equalities Act side of things or (and) notify the Local Authority Building Control that is it suspected that works have been done without approval.
PAULJ5555 said:
Riley Blue said:
As it's a bar, have a word with the council issuing their licence.
Good point, the licence, I was also thinking about building control as the place has only been there 3/4 years and they must of needed a downstairs WC for it to be passed. I suspect both depts will be interested ...
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