M25 Heathrow section unsafe
Discussion
On Sunday, the missus was driving the two of us back from friends in Surrey back up the M40. (Her car, and she wanted to - don't think she trusts me! 
)
Now this section has variable speed limits, has overhead GATSO's within numerous gantries, and has roadworks with ordinary GATSO's WITHIN the variable section.
Despite it being a 4-lane road, on a Sunday morning (and therefore fairly quiet), my fiancee (who is normally a very confident and competent driver) was stressed to the eyeballs from the moment we hit the variable section.
Why?
- The road was unfamiliar. Not normally a problem, but...
- The speed limit kept changing (NSL, 50, 40, 50, 60, NSL over ~5 or 6 miles), and in some cases the overheads appeared to conflict with the roadworks fixed signs.
- There were GATSO markings every few-hundred yards on the road, forcing you to watch your speedo like a hawk.
- Virtually everyone else was going faster than her, because she was sticking to what appeared to be the posted limits.
- There was traffic joining from the left every mile or two, in some cases a normal slip-road, in some cases an extra lane.
- Because she was trying to stick to the posted limits, and hadn't the foggiest what lane she needed to be in in the roadworks, she stuck to lane-2 (my advice) - she was being under- and over-taken by trucks and coaches (worse than the trucks), many of whom left it very late to pull out or very early to pull in.
- The lane-signage in the roadworks is appaling - despite sticking to lane-2, we nearly ended up heading towards Staines at one point!!!
So...you have:-
- The continual fear of points on your license if you brake the limit.
- The fact that most of the other vehicles were driving faster, including heavyweights nearly in the boot.
- The very poor road signage.
In other words, she was spending far more time looking at her speedo, far more time looking in the mirrors and over her shoulders, and far more time looking out for signs telling us we were about to get lost.
Was there any time left for hazard observation?!? HARDLY. I really wouldn't want to drive this section when it was busier. And what will they blame the resultant accidents on?!? Oh - speed of course!
When we hit the M40 you could see her visibly deflate as she relaxed and opened it up to 80-85!!!
) Now this section has variable speed limits, has overhead GATSO's within numerous gantries, and has roadworks with ordinary GATSO's WITHIN the variable section.
Despite it being a 4-lane road, on a Sunday morning (and therefore fairly quiet), my fiancee (who is normally a very confident and competent driver) was stressed to the eyeballs from the moment we hit the variable section.
Why?
- The road was unfamiliar. Not normally a problem, but...
- The speed limit kept changing (NSL, 50, 40, 50, 60, NSL over ~5 or 6 miles), and in some cases the overheads appeared to conflict with the roadworks fixed signs.
- There were GATSO markings every few-hundred yards on the road, forcing you to watch your speedo like a hawk.
- Virtually everyone else was going faster than her, because she was sticking to what appeared to be the posted limits.
- There was traffic joining from the left every mile or two, in some cases a normal slip-road, in some cases an extra lane.
- Because she was trying to stick to the posted limits, and hadn't the foggiest what lane she needed to be in in the roadworks, she stuck to lane-2 (my advice) - she was being under- and over-taken by trucks and coaches (worse than the trucks), many of whom left it very late to pull out or very early to pull in.
- The lane-signage in the roadworks is appaling - despite sticking to lane-2, we nearly ended up heading towards Staines at one point!!!
So...you have:-
- The continual fear of points on your license if you brake the limit.
- The fact that most of the other vehicles were driving faster, including heavyweights nearly in the boot.
- The very poor road signage.
In other words, she was spending far more time looking at her speedo, far more time looking in the mirrors and over her shoulders, and far more time looking out for signs telling us we were about to get lost.
Was there any time left for hazard observation?!? HARDLY. I really wouldn't want to drive this section when it was busier. And what will they blame the resultant accidents on?!? Oh - speed of course!
When we hit the M40 you could see her visibly deflate as she relaxed and opened it up to 80-85!!!
M25 on Sat night coming back from the M3 towards the M40.
Plenty of road works, yellow signs, yellow cameras, one speed limit on the slip road and another on the carriageway. (Often higher on the sliproad!)
I didn't enjoy it one bit!!!
Some of the cameras we on the left (and I been far left - Otherside of the closed slip roads), some were in the middle, others were just after road signs. The TomTom Speed Camera alerts were having a fit!
Plenty of road works, yellow signs, yellow cameras, one speed limit on the slip road and another on the carriageway. (Often higher on the sliproad!)
I didn't enjoy it one bit!!!
Some of the cameras we on the left (and I been far left - Otherside of the closed slip roads), some were in the middle, others were just after road signs. The TomTom Speed Camera alerts were having a fit!
I suspect you're all right, esp. busarush.
But why??? This surely is EFFING DANGEROUS!!! Any fool can see that confusion and distraction are dangerous things to a driver, so WHY has it been set up like it is???
I was in the passenger seat but was acting like a full-time co-pilot, spotting limit changes, spotting traffic on the near side, calling out cameras etc. Just trying to reduce the workload for Becs. Doing it alone, at night, in rush-hour sounds like a recipe for a nervous breakdown!!!
OK, sorry to rant, but that stretch of road has wound me up...I've never seen anything so bloody stupid in my life...and the key function of it seems to be revenue raising, to top it all off!!!
But why??? This surely is EFFING DANGEROUS!!! Any fool can see that confusion and distraction are dangerous things to a driver, so WHY has it been set up like it is???
I was in the passenger seat but was acting like a full-time co-pilot, spotting limit changes, spotting traffic on the near side, calling out cameras etc. Just trying to reduce the workload for Becs. Doing it alone, at night, in rush-hour sounds like a recipe for a nervous breakdown!!!
OK, sorry to rant, but that stretch of road has wound me up...I've never seen anything so bloody stupid in my life...and the key function of it seems to be revenue raising, to top it all off!!!
Plotloss said:
So if the gantry says 50 but the camera is set to go when it says 40 you can go through at 110 if you want with no trouble.
its set at about 85/90 at the moment, big thing is though its only in lane 3, lanes 1, 2 & 4 have no camera's above the gantry...
Lanes 1, 2 & 3 have the boxes but no flash, looks like lane 4 has no box at all....
Between 15&16 they were going mental the other morning, looks like they were set well below the 110 that they are normally set at...
No you misunderstand.
The trigger speed for the camera is NOT variable.
So for any given gantry the camera will only activate at one speed not as you are led to believe that it will activate at 60 when its 50 or 50 when its 40.
The trigger limit doesnt move.
This is to do with the calibration of the device.
The trigger speed for the camera is NOT variable.
So for any given gantry the camera will only activate at one speed not as you are led to believe that it will activate at 60 when its 50 or 50 when its 40.
The trigger limit doesnt move.
This is to do with the calibration of the device.
Yep.
Did that journey once each way today in rush hour. Keep left rules kind of go out of the window as some people seem happy to do 60 and brake heavily for the lines, and the inside lane is a constant slip/filter lane. I try to keep a cocoon of space around me, and pull over if somebody is trying to make progress behind me.
Made all the more irritating by the morning show on LBC this morning moaning about speeding drivers (about to start a thread on this - www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=164974&f=10&h=0)
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Tuesday 22 March 18:53
Did that journey once each way today in rush hour. Keep left rules kind of go out of the window as some people seem happy to do 60 and brake heavily for the lines, and the inside lane is a constant slip/filter lane. I try to keep a cocoon of space around me, and pull over if somebody is trying to make progress behind me.
Made all the more irritating by the morning show on LBC this morning moaning about speeding drivers (about to start a thread on this - www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=164974&f=10&h=0)
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Tuesday 22 March 18:53
I live at the nice part of the M25. J25. and usually only travel clockwise to J29 theres no Scameras there anymore.
the heathrow section is a nightmare. They even hae the cheek to brag about how many people have been caught on that electronic display.
A nightmare piece of road. i hope i dont have to use it for a while.
the heathrow section is a nightmare. They even hae the cheek to brag about how many people have been caught on that electronic display.
A nightmare piece of road. i hope i dont have to use it for a while.
Do you think anyone would mind (or notice!!!) if a small nuclear device was set off at Staines?
Nothing nasty, just enough to lay waste to about a 5-mile radius. Airburst preferably - we don't want the fallout heading into central london now...
Would solve a whole lot of problems.
Note this IS a joke and in no way represents any sort of terrorist threat to the state, or the people of Staines, no matter how much they might deserve it!
Nothing nasty, just enough to lay waste to about a 5-mile radius. Airburst preferably - we don't want the fallout heading into central london now...
Would solve a whole lot of problems.
Note this IS a joke and in no way represents any sort of terrorist threat to the state, or the people of Staines, no matter how much they might deserve it!
havoc said:
On Sunday, the missus was driving the two of us back from friends in Surrey back up the M40. (Her car, and she wanted to - don't think she trusts me!
Where to start - some of us do this twice a day Monday to Friday and don't appreciate obvious newbies cocking it up big time.
havoc said:
- There were GATSO markings every few-hundred yards on the road, forcing you to watch your speedo like a hawk.
Keeps it interesting I find.
havoc said:
- Virtually everyone else was going faster than her, because she was sticking to what appeared to be the posted limits.
M25 is like that. Most folks ignore the limits - sticking to the limits marks you out as being a real country bumpkin.
havoc said:
- There was traffic joining from the left every mile or two, in some cases a normal slip-road, in some cases an extra lane.
That'll be the roadworks then.
havoc said:
- Because she was trying to stick to the posted limits, and hadn't the foggiest what lane she needed to be in in the roadworks, she stuck to lane-2 (my advice)
Oh no another lane hogger - they drive on the LEFT in UK, remember.
If you don't know what you are doing - get in the left lane and stay there. Let other folks pass.
havoc said:
- she was being under- and over-taken by trucks and coaches (worse than the trucks), many of whom left it very late to pull out or very early to pull in.
If there is room for traffic to undertake, see my point above.
havoc said:
- The lane-signage in the roadworks is appaling - despite sticking to lane-2, we nearly ended up heading towards Staines at one point!!!
Try reading the signs sometime. Staines is signposted from about five miles away.
havoc said:
When we hit the M40 you could see her visibly deflate as she relaxed and opened it up to 80-85!!!
Oh no - can't cope with the simple stuff at 40 mph, but feels comfortable at 80 mph ?
dcb, that's a bit harsh.
Like you, I drive the M25 roadworks relatively often (certainly every couple of weeks), and agree that an observant experienced driver shouldn't have too much trouble with it.
However, for somebody not used to it, or who doesn't know the area, or who doesn't automatically know what road name = what place name etc., it can be very daunting. It's not simply a case of sitting in the LH lane, and often if you do you are filtered off with very little warning, or end up with an HGV up your exhaust pipe.
The fact that the layout of the lanes and speed limit changes changes every few days doesn't help, neither does that fact that at night/in rain it is almost impossible to see the lane markings, only the black shiny bist where the old lane markings have been burned off.
If you don't use it every day there is a lot to take on board, and keeping one eye on the speedo making sure you don't go up to 41mph is counter productive. But speed kills, doncha know?
Like you, I drive the M25 roadworks relatively often (certainly every couple of weeks), and agree that an observant experienced driver shouldn't have too much trouble with it.
However, for somebody not used to it, or who doesn't know the area, or who doesn't automatically know what road name = what place name etc., it can be very daunting. It's not simply a case of sitting in the LH lane, and often if you do you are filtered off with very little warning, or end up with an HGV up your exhaust pipe.
The fact that the layout of the lanes and speed limit changes changes every few days doesn't help, neither does that fact that at night/in rain it is almost impossible to see the lane markings, only the black shiny bist where the old lane markings have been burned off.
If you don't use it every day there is a lot to take on board, and keeping one eye on the speedo making sure you don't go up to 41mph is counter productive. But speed kills, doncha know?
havoc said:
Do you think anyone would mind (or notice!!!) if a small nuclear device was set off at Staines?
Nothing nasty, just enough to lay waste to about a 5-mile radius. Airburst preferably - we don't want the fallout heading into central london now...
Would solve a whole lot of problems.
Note this IS a joke and in no way represents any sort of terrorist threat to the state, or the people of Staines, no matter how much they might deserve it!
Let me know when you're going to do this - I won't bother going to work that day...
hughesie2 said:
Whats even less enforceable is the 30mph signs casually leaning up in front of the NSL signs, i'd like to see them enforce that one !!
There was one like that near me recently... They covered up the 50 on leaving an NSL, but failed to put two 30's at the start of the roadworks...
So the speed limit was actually 60
I was dying to be stopped and go back to the signage with 
, but do you think I could get pulled, could I 'eckers like 
Plotloss said:A road or carriageway can't have two speed limits. Their problem not yours!
The amount of times the speed limit changes and the fact that there appears to be two limits in force at times is utterly preposterous.
I do wonder if such a conviction would stand up in court due to very confusing signage...
dcb said:
Some really quite unnecessary stuff
dcb,
I'm not going to bother replying to each of your points - they don't deserve it.
The section of the M25 I refer to is extremely confusing, this from someone who did Spaghetti Junction for 6 years, including during major roadworks.
Lane 2 was the nearest-side lane I could guarantee wasn't going to spit us off onto a slip-road without warning, and as I wasn't driving, I didn't want to push Becky into sudden manoeuvers - I'm sure you see the logic there.
The rest...just shows you up as a typical rep who has no consideration for other road users...and as for obeying a speed limit in an unfamiliar camera-infested stretch, well excuse us, sorry we intruded on your private road!!!
When you develop some manners, courtesy, and the ability to hold a reasoned debate in public politely, please come back and rejoin the forum!!!
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