Thomas Orchard trial
Discussion
Police custody death: Thomas Orchard restrained 'unlawfully'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-3881126...
I bet they wish they'd just tasered him.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-3881126...
I bet they wish they'd just tasered him.
Taser? You're like a dog with a bone.
In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
Greendubber said:
Taser? You're like a dog with a bone.
In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
It just goes to show, nobody knows everything.In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
bmw535i said:
Greendubber said:
Taser? You're like a dog with a bone.
In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
It just goes to show, nobody knows everything.In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
It's a retrial. The Judge stopped the 2016 trial for legal reasons. The jury were taking a while to come to a verdict or couldn't reach a verdict.
On your first aid course is much made about the importance of clear airways?
How many restraint refresher courses have you attended where positional asphyxia has been mentioned?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/feb...
Do the 'experienced' custody staff stop supporting his head at the doorway?
It was degrading and humiliating treatment and an unusual punishment that would constitute an obvious breach of article three of the Human Rights Act? Fundamental Human Rights are on the Constable's Oath.
Greendubber said:
Taser? You're like a dog with a bone.
In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
When you do your restraint refresher course do you cover first aid at the same time or is that another course you attend to refresh and update your first aid skills separately?In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
On your first aid course is much made about the importance of clear airways?
How many restraint refresher courses have you attended where positional asphyxia has been mentioned?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/feb...
Do the 'experienced' custody staff stop supporting his head at the doorway?
It was degrading and humiliating treatment and an unusual punishment that would constitute an obvious breach of article three of the Human Rights Act? Fundamental Human Rights are on the Constable's Oath.
Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 1st February 07:20
carinaman said:
It's a retrial. The Judge stopped the 2016 trial for legal reasons. The jury were taking a while to come to a verdict or couldn't reach a verdict.
On your first aid course is much made about the importance of clear airways?
How many restraint refresher courses have you attended where positional asphyxia has been mentioned?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/feb...
Do the 'experienced' custody staff stop supporting his head at the doorway?
It was degrading and humiliating treatment and an unusual punishment that would constitute an obvious breach of article three of the Human Rights Act? Fundamental Human Rights are on the Constable's Oath.
Positional asphyxia and excited delirium used to be emphasised quite heavily - I assume it still is? or should beGreendubber said:
Taser? You're like a dog with a bone.
In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
When you do your restraint refresher course do you cover first aid at the same time or is that another course you attend to refresh and update your first aid skills separately?In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
On your first aid course is much made about the importance of clear airways?
How many restraint refresher courses have you attended where positional asphyxia has been mentioned?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/feb...
Do the 'experienced' custody staff stop supporting his head at the doorway?
It was degrading and humiliating treatment and an unusual punishment that would constitute an obvious breach of article three of the Human Rights Act? Fundamental Human Rights are on the Constable's Oath.
Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 1st February 07:20
At the previous trial it was said that he had threatened to bite, but the threat to bite was too quietly for the audio recording to pick it up.
So someone having mental health issues is reportedly shouting at strangers on the street but then becomes that calm and compliant they whisper threats to bite? I'm not sure that sounds plausible to me.
Was he spitting? If he was being carried face down any spit would've gone towards the floor, or the lower legs or feet of the officers.
I'm not condoning spitting, but killing someone for it does not seem proportionate.
The death was described as a 'heart attack'. The use of the Emergency Restraint Belt around the face only came to light after an independent person at the post mortem asked what the marks were around his face.
So someone having mental health issues is reportedly shouting at strangers on the street but then becomes that calm and compliant they whisper threats to bite? I'm not sure that sounds plausible to me.
Was he spitting? If he was being carried face down any spit would've gone towards the floor, or the lower legs or feet of the officers.
I'm not condoning spitting, but killing someone for it does not seem proportionate.
The death was described as a 'heart attack'. The use of the Emergency Restraint Belt around the face only came to light after an independent person at the post mortem asked what the marks were around his face.
Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 1st February 08:40
Bigends said:
carinaman said:
It's a retrial. The Judge stopped the 2016 trial for legal reasons. The jury were taking a while to come to a verdict or couldn't reach a verdict.
On your first aid course is much made about the importance of clear airways?
How many restraint refresher courses have you attended where positional asphyxia has been mentioned?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/feb...
Do the 'experienced' custody staff stop supporting his head at the doorway?
It was degrading and humiliating treatment and an unusual punishment that would constitute an obvious breach of article three of the Human Rights Act? Fundamental Human Rights are on the Constable's Oath.
Positional asphyxia and excited delirium used to be emphasised quite heavily - I assume it still is? or should beGreendubber said:
Taser? You're like a dog with a bone.
In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
When you do your restraint refresher course do you cover first aid at the same time or is that another course you attend to refresh and update your first aid skills separately?In other news...
I had no idea what an 'ERB' was so had to google it, why was it over his mouth and nose? We have velcro leg straps but they certainly dont go anywhere near a persons head. They very rarely go around the upper arms and torso for non compliant fingerprints but most angry customers have previously given prints so no need to fight for a new set unless they've had a new pair of hands, hence why it hardly happens.
On your first aid course is much made about the importance of clear airways?
How many restraint refresher courses have you attended where positional asphyxia has been mentioned?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/feb...
Do the 'experienced' custody staff stop supporting his head at the doorway?
It was degrading and humiliating treatment and an unusual punishment that would constitute an obvious breach of article three of the Human Rights Act? Fundamental Human Rights are on the Constable's Oath.
Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 1st February 07:20
With regard first aid training I'm a fast aid trained medic, everyone else has yearly refresher training as well as first aid at work.
Greendubber said:
It still is.
With regard first aid training I'm a fast aid trained medic, everyone else has yearly refresher training as well as first aid at work.
So you can understand my point about why some may be wondering why officers would do anything that interferes with an airway? With regard first aid training I'm a fast aid trained medic, everyone else has yearly refresher training as well as first aid at work.
carinaman said:
Greendubber said:
It still is.
With regard first aid training I'm a fast aid trained medic, everyone else has yearly refresher training as well as first aid at work.
So you can understand my point about why some may be wondering why officers would do anything that interferes with an airway? With regard first aid training I'm a fast aid trained medic, everyone else has yearly refresher training as well as first aid at work.
I'll also add I would be concerned leaving someone seemingly motionless after he cell extraction. Although the Guardian video doesn't last long enough to know whether he was or not, I'd want to see clear signs of breathing prior to leaving him. I'd also prefer to leave him in the recovery position if his demeanour had changed i.e. he wasn't fighting any more and was motionless.
The control reduces them chances of them being able to turn and spit, bite and thrash out as much. It also reduces the chances of them being able to headbutt the floor once they're placed down in the cell.
carinaman said:
La Liga thank you for your responses.
Do they continue to support his head like that once in the police station?
Taking hold of a person's head / neck area isn't for support. The neck does a pretty good job of that. It's for control. Taking hold of the limbs is different as that's both for support and control. Do they continue to support his head like that once in the police station?
The control reduces them chances of them being able to turn and spit, bite and thrash out as much. It also reduces the chances of them being able to headbutt the floor once they're placed down in the cell.
These modern methods of restraint have quite impressed me in the main. I was taught to put a knee across the cheek of someone trying to spit. No weight was applied, just a block to him, or her, turning their head or the spit getting through. They could, and normally did, try to push the knee away but neck muscles aren't up to that sort of effort, even if they are on drugs. It was effective, non-injurious and allowed limited movement. There was no obstruction to airways.
It looked terrible though and when officers removed a mental patient from a canteen there was almost a queue in the nick's front office of people from the canteen who wanted to complain. It was stopped. The methods that were put in its place were all more likely to cause the prisoner injury by allowing them more movement. I often wondered if, once out of sight, the safer method was used.
The reasoning for the strap across the face passes me by. It seems an odd thing to do.
I want to know their explanations.
It looked terrible though and when officers removed a mental patient from a canteen there was almost a queue in the nick's front office of people from the canteen who wanted to complain. It was stopped. The methods that were put in its place were all more likely to cause the prisoner injury by allowing them more movement. I often wondered if, once out of sight, the safer method was used.
The reasoning for the strap across the face passes me by. It seems an odd thing to do.
I want to know their explanations.
Looking at the video - all restraints were removed when he was left face down on a mat in the cell. If he wasn't still resisting snd communicating youd have though someone would have given him a nudge or a poke to see if he was conscious and breathing before leaving him.
Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 1st February 10:13
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