Consequences of towing with non-TA vehicle

[caelite]

Hey folks

I lent my friend my trailer a few days ago so he could move some stuff out of his garden, its just a little 750kg plated single axle, about 2.5m long. Can be towed safely behind most motors. Jobs already done, trailer was returned safely nothing awry happened. However I mentioned to my pal that I didn't think he could tow with his car (mk1 Leon Cupra R) as the hot VAG models are renowned for not being Type Approved for it. He had said the tow bar was fitted when he bought the thing and is stamped with '1300kg braked, 720kg unbraked' on the side, which is close enough to the towing capacity of the 'Normal' mk1 Leons. However after a quick google we found that his car in fact had a towing capacity of 0kg 'because Cupra'. We both agreed that it is somewhat of a bummer, but he's still going to tow with it since we both reckon the chances of getting caught (especially up our way in relatively rural Scotland) are pretty slim.

However neither of us where sure what the actual consequences of getting caught are, I've heard dealings of colleagues running overloaded vans/trailers and being caught but that was only a slap on the wrist (£100-500 fines) however honestly I can't find anything about the punishment of towing with a non type approved vehicle, if it goes to court surely they need to assess the actual potential for harm and fine accordingly. The potential for harm being minimal as the chassis is rated for towing in other skews. With the only real risk being to the accused parties drivetrain.

Any input would be welcome
CAE

[strain]

FIL got £1000 fine for overloading his van.

It would be seriously unlucky if he did get caught and the police knew anything about towing, although not sure if ANPR would give a max tow on the vehicle?

[cbmotorsport]

I towed a twin axled braked trailer with a racing hot hatch on it for around 3 years in a Mk1 Leon Cupra, didn't give it a second thought. It was a few years ago though.

[caelite]

strain said:

FIL got £1000 fine for overloading his van.

It would be seriously unlucky if he did get caught and the police knew anything about towing, although not sure if ANPR would give a max tow on the vehicle?

Yeah that was my thinking, I've been pulled over towing a heavy tri-axle, lads kicked the tyres, yanked on the straps, asked me what I was towing, who it belonged too etc etc. They then breathalysed me (aparantly I was weaving slightly, which is why they pulled me ) and sent me on my way. Funny thing is the trailer was probably over 3.5ton and their was a weighbridge literally 300metres up the road they could have checked it on . I've said similar things before on here, unless your a pik-ey dragging 5ton of aggregate or scrap metal around and you can pass an attitude test they tend to leave you to your own devices. Unless the VOSA cops are having a slow day sniffing for dodgy trucks and red diesel.

Plus £1000. Jeeze he must've had something heavy on board, we get fined semi-frequently (about once every 6 months) for overloaded trailers and its almost always a £200-300 FPN (for under 30% over). We had a guy get rung up at 40 something % over, he got suited and booted and sent to court and got slapped with £500 and some victim surcharge (I think 70-90) which our boss paid.

Issue is I am looking at non-TA approval in two ways, either they take a realistic approach and view that their is no real mechanical safety issue taking place and offer a slap on the wrist fine, or take the more outlandish approach, claim that he's ?% over and whip out the long dick of the law. I don't have any idea how they would prosecute for it, hopefully some of the legal bods on here can explain.

Although in my opinion the chances of him getting caught are slim to none. All he wants to tow is a lightweight jetski.

[rewc]

I guess everything will be alright until something goes wrong. What would be the insurance implications? The extension to third party risk from damage caused by the trailer would possibly be void.
"If your VIN plate doesn’t list a train weight, you should not use your vehicle for towing."
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/weight-and-widt...

[caelite]

rewc said:

I guess everything will be alright until something goes wrong. What would be the insurance implications? The extension to third party risk from damage caused by the trailer would possibly be void.
"If your VIN plate doesn’t list a train weight, you should not use your vehicle for towing."
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/weight-and-widt...

I believe he has the tow bar declared with his insurer with no problem, I know he has a few choice modifications (remap, catback) that he has declared so I assume he has declared the bar.

His VIN plate doesn't display a train weight, we have already established that him using it for towing (as we assume the previous owner did too) is illegal. However I was just curious what the actual offence would be and how strict the prosecution for it would be.

[Nigel_O]

If the car is not type-approved for towing, how did a towbar get fitted? If it was an approved supplier / fitter, it could be argued that they should have checked whether the vehicle was allowed to tow

[Deisel Weisel]

Nigel_O said:

If the car is not type-approved for towing, how did a towbar get fitted? If it was an approved supplier / fitter, it could be argued that they should have checked whether the vehicle was allowed to tow

Ford Puma’s are also not TA to tow. I inquired at a legit tow bar fitting centre and they said they would fit it as long as I stated it wouldn’t be used on public roads, only private roads (IIRC, they wanted me to sign something to that effect). And they also wouldn’t fit the actual tow ball hitch, they would sell that part to me, but I had to fit it myself.

[caelite]

Nigel_O said:

If the car is not type-approved for towing, how did a towbar get fitted? If it was an approved supplier / fitter, it could be argued that they should have checked whether the vehicle was allowed to tow

If it is anything like my old Fabia VRS the rear crash bar and chassis mounts will be exactly the same as the normal model. Meaning a standard Golf/Leon/Octavia bar can be chucked on their in a perfectly secure manner. My bet would be the previous owner buying a 'normal' towbar for a Leon then having it fitted either by a backstreet mechanic who didn't check or by an approved fitter with some kind of agreement it was only going to be used for a bike rack or something.

As I said from a realistic safety point of view the only difference between the type approved and non type approved models is a slightly different bumper designs and (ironically) a drivetrain/braking system more capable of handling the weight.

Used to drive me loopy on my Fabia, 1.4 old 'pre-VAG' gutless petrol could tow a ton, yet my 1.9TDI 130bhp 280nm diesel with big discs all around was entirely outlawed. Absolutely stupid piece of legislation. (which is entirely ignored in many other EU nations, such as Sweden, our DVLA loves to sucker up to all the obtuse stuff though)

[Utterpiffle]

Interesting thread, and one I've thought about often.

I had a tow bar (and used it regularly) on my w210 Mercedes e55 AMG estate. Plated as 0kg. I took that towbar off my old w210 Mercedes e430 estate. Exactly the same car - even the engine was the same type, albeit a different capacity. On enquiry, Mercedes say it was because the rear diff couldn't take the extra load. bks excuse, but that was their reply.

I've now got a w211 e63 estate - again plated 0kg. I would love to put a tow bar on this, the only reason I haven't for now is that it would involve cutting the skirt on the rear bumper.

[littlebasher]

Having been stopped once for a Motorway service station 'Blitz' on vehicles towing trailers / caravans, all they checked was that the weights etc corresponded to the plate on the caravan and the VIN plate on the car.

Check and see what the VIN plate has on it - If they first two numbers are the same, they'd be tearing you a new one!

[Adrian E]

Haven't looked into the detail, but I'd imagine there's a potential offence under the Road Traffic Act for using a vehicle in an overloaded condition (no train weight = overloaded if there's a 3rd axle on the ground)

I suspect the only thing you could potentially use the towbar for legally would be a bike rack mounted on the towbar, so long as it didn't exceed the rear axle load permitted.

I doubt many police outside specialist traffic would even know where to start

Just because your insurer's phone monkey says it's OK and covered, doesn't mean it's legal, nor that they'll pay out if it transpires what you are doing is legal, if a clued up assessor notices and understands and the trailer had a part to play, but the chances of all of those things happening? Probably slim-to-none.

[andye30m3]

I had a similar thing with my E36 M3 Evo, went to order a tow bar and they didn't list one of the M3 however you could buy one for every other E36 which would fit the M3 as they all have the same shell but less power to drag a trailer along with.

[shovelheadrob]

Have a similar issue with American pick ups, American manufacturers do not display towing weights on the door sticker, just in the handbook which means according to the wording of the law a vehicle that the manufacturer's give a tow rating of nearly 6000kg can't pull a thing.

[superlightr]

Utterpiffle said:

Interesting thread, and one I've thought about often.

I had a tow bar (and used it regularly) on my w210 Mercedes e55 AMG estate. Plated as 0kg. I took that towbar off my old w210 Mercedes e430 estate. Exactly the same car - even the engine was the same type, albeit a different capacity. On enquiry, Mercedes say it was because the rear diff couldn't take the extra load. bks excuse, but that was their reply.

I've now got a w211 e63 estate - again plated 0kg. I would love to put a tow bar on this, the only reason I haven't for now is that it would involve cutting the skirt on the rear bumper.

had the same issue with my E63 amg. wasn't type approved. Sold it and now have a RS6 that is

[caelite]

littlebasher said:

Having been stopped once for a Motorway service station 'Blitz' on vehicles towing trailers / caravans, all they checked was that the weights etc corresponded to the plate on the caravan and the VIN plate on the car.

Check and see what the VIN plate has on it - If they first two numbers are the same, they'd be tearing you a new one!

• Bangs head on desk* I know its illegal, vin has its gross train rated for 0kg (which means that you can tow 0kg of load, and total payload = gross vehicle weight - tare weight). Its the arse tearing bit I am trying to figure out, I can find plenty of precidence of people getting fined for overloading, but absolutely none where the train weight was 0kg due to lack of type approval.

Adrian E said:

Haven't looked into the detail, but I'd imagine there's a potential offence under the Road Traffic Act for using a vehicle in an overloaded condition (no train weight = overloaded if there's a 3rd axle on the ground)

I suspect the only thing you could potentially use the towbar for legally would be a bike rack mounted on the towbar, so long as it didn't exceed the rear axle load permitted.

I doubt many police outside specialist traffic would even know where to start

Just because your insurer's phone monkey says it's OK and covered, doesn't mean it's legal, nor that they'll pay out if it transpires what you are doing is legal, if a clued up assessor notices and understands and the trailer had a part to play, but the chances of all of those things happening? Probably slim-to-none.

You are correct, overloading a vehicle falls under the Road Traffic Act 1988 C&U regs and can carry a non-endorseble fine up to £5000 through court, although £50-300 FPNs are offered for level 1 through 4 offences (Which I believe for overloading falls between 10-30% over limit, although from what I've heard from drivers in work there is some wiggle room even on that as FPNs are easy, court summons aren't). Although if considered to be 'dangerously overloaded' it CAN fall under dangerous driving too.

If caught in a situation like littlebasher I believe traffpol would be a bit lost too, if that wasn't the case I'm sure Derrick, would've been in here explaining exactly what shape hole he would be tearing into the prosecuted party

The issue I find is; whilst I believe being caught would result in a court summons, surely within court they need to argue that an actual threat to safety has occurred. And prosecute accordingly. Now as an engineer myself and someone who works around light logistics (transport and install generators), I would really struggle to see the arguement that a car, which has a type approved chassis (within another model) and a more than adequate drivetrain would be putting the public at risk with a light trailer on it. A Leon Cupra/E55 AMG/Fabia VRS etc would, in my eyes, be putting far less risk to the public than someone in a standard type approved model which was ~10% overloaded. Although cars with an entirely untested chassis (Puma, some of the silly supercar pictures you see with trailer) I would say would be a potential risk.

I believe the only real risk is: as an above poster mentioned, to the vehicles own drivetrain wear, which is hardly an area the courts would have their noses in, unless theirs a fine for thrashing whilst cold I haven't heard about.

EDIT: On another note, whats the offence for modifying a VIN plate in order to mislead an officer of the law, would that be perversion of justice? I know modifying trailer plates are a common practice but never heard of car ones being modified other than in the context of theft.

Also the insurance issue, you probably have a point there Adrian, but as you say the chances are extremely small.

Edited by caelite on Thursday 16th February 17:52

[hidetheelephants]

littlebasher said:

Having been stopped once for a Motorway service station 'Blitz' on vehicles towing trailers / caravans, all they checked was that the weights etc corresponded to the plate on the caravan and the VIN plate on the car.

Check and see what the VIN plate has on it - If they first two numbers are the same, they'd be tearing you a new one!

Given how easy it is to replicate etched plates(supplying them is a cottage industry in the classic restoration biz, conkers restos need shiny underbonnet plates) it wouldn't be the work of a criminal genius to knock up a hooky VIN plate with a plausible GTW.

[whitevancam]

I know people don't like threads being resurrected years later but here we go....

I've got an M240i and would like to tow a trailer for my motorbike.

The towbar will bolt straight on, no problem but it is not Type Approved for towing.

I don't see why I can't fit the towbar and put it through the IVA like a modified car??

The way I'm thinking about it is that as pointed out above, as long as I stick to the towing limits of say a 220d then it will all be safe, my gearbox is not going to self destruct under the strain as it is the same engine gearbox combo is used in cars that can tow.

I'm going to contact DVSA and ask if I can get it approved.

If I remapped my car then that is not the same car that was 'Type Approved' but I can just ring up my insurance company and declare it and all is good, same with lowering springs or massive 20" rims.

BMW doesn't recommend or put in the owners manual that I can pull out all the suspension and fit air ride and slam it on the ground, all I would have to do is declare it on my insurance, even though I could then put four big blokes in the car with all their luggage on an air ride system off eBay that has never been near a type approval, all good.

Must be a way round this.

[Gavia]

Get / Hire a van.

I’ve got an M4 and that can’t have a towbar, as the exhausts / catalytic converters fill up the space where the towbar is supposed to fit to.

[Poshbury]

I find it odd that my Jaguar XFR which has over 500 BHP as standard and big brakes, isn't type approved for towing. I only found out after buying it and I was planning on selling my Volvo V70 thinking I would only need the one car. Bizarre.