Advice wanted - land problem
Discussion
Hi, some advice needed for a friend, let's call her Jenny, one of the wife's work colleagues.
They live in a detached house with a reasonable size garden at the back. A few months ago they put up a fence on what they believe to be their land in between the back garden and a rough patch of unused land. They consulted their deeds and looked at a plan of their land before doing so. So after the fence had been built the land-owner called and told them they'd put the fence up on his land. The woman in questions husband, let’s call him Tim, disputed this and showed the land-owner the plans showing what he believed was the correct positioning of the fence. Tim also stated that the 12 inches in question is about the width of the pencil mark on the plans delineating the land. The land-owner said okay I'll see you in the Small Claims Court. Tim was feeling bullish at this point, believing he'd done nothing wrong.
So they go to the Small Claims Court, and the land-owner pulls a fast one, saying that because he's in the business of buying and selling properties, this dispute was costing his business money, which he estimated to be worth £35,000. So the court said that this isn't the correct place as they were limited to disputes of only up to £10,000. It would have to go to the proper court (forgive my fancy legalise there!).
The couple in question, Tim and Jenny, don't have £35,000. When Jenny came into work the other day, my wife asked how she was, apparently, she looked very pale and she burst into tears. She is well into her 60s and she was saying that she can't afford to pay the land-owner, they would be too old to raise the money via a re-mortgage. My wife was perplexed as to why they would be even considering paying, and not taking it further. However Jenny is saying that she has high blood pressure and that she can't sleep because of the worry.
After looking up the land owner, they found out he had about 11 similar court cases going on simultaneously and he admitted as much to Tim. They suspect this is how he makes his money, talking to a neighbour confirmed that she had had a dispute with him a few years ago which almost led to another court case. Fortunately for this neighbour, she knew people at the County Court and she was able to get very good advice.
When told this, I thought that it would probably be best if Tim could compromise in some way, take down the fence and just try and resolve the matter but I'm led to believe it's gone too far now. I also believe that the land owner is an arse of the highest order. I also don’t believe frozen sausages hammered into the lawn is the answer
I guess the advice will be consult a solicitor, but they're very worried about spending money, losing and still having to pay this man, they don't have large savings and are worried about losing the house. Any advice gratefully welcomed.
They live in a detached house with a reasonable size garden at the back. A few months ago they put up a fence on what they believe to be their land in between the back garden and a rough patch of unused land. They consulted their deeds and looked at a plan of their land before doing so. So after the fence had been built the land-owner called and told them they'd put the fence up on his land. The woman in questions husband, let’s call him Tim, disputed this and showed the land-owner the plans showing what he believed was the correct positioning of the fence. Tim also stated that the 12 inches in question is about the width of the pencil mark on the plans delineating the land. The land-owner said okay I'll see you in the Small Claims Court. Tim was feeling bullish at this point, believing he'd done nothing wrong.
So they go to the Small Claims Court, and the land-owner pulls a fast one, saying that because he's in the business of buying and selling properties, this dispute was costing his business money, which he estimated to be worth £35,000. So the court said that this isn't the correct place as they were limited to disputes of only up to £10,000. It would have to go to the proper court (forgive my fancy legalise there!).
The couple in question, Tim and Jenny, don't have £35,000. When Jenny came into work the other day, my wife asked how she was, apparently, she looked very pale and she burst into tears. She is well into her 60s and she was saying that she can't afford to pay the land-owner, they would be too old to raise the money via a re-mortgage. My wife was perplexed as to why they would be even considering paying, and not taking it further. However Jenny is saying that she has high blood pressure and that she can't sleep because of the worry.
After looking up the land owner, they found out he had about 11 similar court cases going on simultaneously and he admitted as much to Tim. They suspect this is how he makes his money, talking to a neighbour confirmed that she had had a dispute with him a few years ago which almost led to another court case. Fortunately for this neighbour, she knew people at the County Court and she was able to get very good advice.
When told this, I thought that it would probably be best if Tim could compromise in some way, take down the fence and just try and resolve the matter but I'm led to believe it's gone too far now. I also believe that the land owner is an arse of the highest order. I also don’t believe frozen sausages hammered into the lawn is the answer
I guess the advice will be consult a solicitor, but they're very worried about spending money, losing and still having to pay this man, they don't have large savings and are worried about losing the house. Any advice gratefully welcomed.
1. Is he sure about the foot of land (a pens width).
2. A LR title plan is not usually definitive. The long established boundaries may also have a bearing.
3. How can the adjacent owner have forced the issue - he did not move the fence.
4. Is a foot worth the hassle?
5. £35K? how?
5. There is at least one person in Homes and Garden who should read this thread.
6. Head down this path any further there will one loser, one winner, and two wealthier lawyers.
2. A LR title plan is not usually definitive. The long established boundaries may also have a bearing.
3. How can the adjacent owner have forced the issue - he did not move the fence.
4. Is a foot worth the hassle?
5. £35K? how?
5. There is at least one person in Homes and Garden who should read this thread.
6. Head down this path any further there will one loser, one winner, and two wealthier lawyers.
Edited by surveyor on Friday 7th April 21:42
No way neighbour can prove 12" of scrub land costs him £35K-he must prove that, not jenny & Tim.Even £10k seems mad.
Has neighbour issued a county court claim?Implied that J&T are the ones being sued.What is he claiming for?If just the land then may be worth moving the fence,by way of settlement
Do they have a lawyer involved?Do they have legal expenses cover on their home insurance they can use to fight this?
Has neighbour issued a county court claim?Implied that J&T are the ones being sued.What is he claiming for?If just the land then may be worth moving the fence,by way of settlement
Do they have a lawyer involved?Do they have legal expenses cover on their home insurance they can use to fight this?
Thanks for the advice/interest so far...
Just on the 12 inches of land - the landowner is claiming that's twelve inches in width and it goes back 20 feet or so, so more like 20 sq ft.
However, he's not claiming the £ for that, he's claiming the £35k for the 'damage to his business of buying and selling land and houses' as this legal battle means he can't sell at the minute. It should be noted that this particular piece of waste land has stood as it has for 20 years or so.
I was also told by the Missus that the landowner lives in Hale, a very rich part of Manchester, and with 11 other cases running concurrently, he's obviously successful at suing people and very comfortable with the legal process involved. He also sounds like a complete blight on society if this is how he makes his living.
Just on the 12 inches of land - the landowner is claiming that's twelve inches in width and it goes back 20 feet or so, so more like 20 sq ft.
However, he's not claiming the £ for that, he's claiming the £35k for the 'damage to his business of buying and selling land and houses' as this legal battle means he can't sell at the minute. It should be noted that this particular piece of waste land has stood as it has for 20 years or so.
I was also told by the Missus that the landowner lives in Hale, a very rich part of Manchester, and with 11 other cases running concurrently, he's obviously successful at suing people and very comfortable with the legal process involved. He also sounds like a complete blight on society if this is how he makes his living.
Two sides to every story.
He might be a total arse who's a complete parasite, but there's zero evidence of that other than he's aggressively defending against a boundary being moved. You can imagine how annoying that is for a landowner especially if he's got a lot of land.
His tactics are probably from experience more than anything else, playing it softly softly is often going to be seen as weakness by people who have enough brass neck to steal other people's land by moving boundaries.
If they're that worried just move the bloody boundary back to where it was.
He might be a total arse who's a complete parasite, but there's zero evidence of that other than he's aggressively defending against a boundary being moved. You can imagine how annoying that is for a landowner especially if he's got a lot of land.
His tactics are probably from experience more than anything else, playing it softly softly is often going to be seen as weakness by people who have enough brass neck to steal other people's land by moving boundaries.
If they're that worried just move the bloody boundary back to where it was.
From my experience with a bit of land, boundaries are a grey area. The (usually) only source is a Ordinance survey map, but these are NOT a guarantee off being correct, or accurate. If the boundary between two properties is not defined by an existing fence, or some ‘entity’, I’ve heard of an agreement between the two parties that an independent surveyor will determine the boundaries.
What marked the boundary prior to them erecting their fence? Was there a previous fence or hedge that was removed? Is the new fence on that line?
If it goes to court the court will require the parties to go through arbitration, the OPs friends will presumably be reasonable etc so could win.
But the real question is have they attempted to move the boundary? Even if they think it is now in the correct place?
If the op posts the relevant extract of the title plan and a few pictures an opinion may be formed as to where the boundary is
If it goes to court the court will require the parties to go through arbitration, the OPs friends will presumably be reasonable etc so could win.
But the real question is have they attempted to move the boundary? Even if they think it is now in the correct place?
If the op posts the relevant extract of the title plan and a few pictures an opinion may be formed as to where the boundary is
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