Public Car Park demanding smartphone payment - legal or no?
Discussion
I recently found myself in a public (local authority owned and run) car-park where the cash machine had been vandalised/was adorned with a notice telling me that I "MUST" use a parking payment App to pay for parking in the car-park instead.
That assumes I have a smartphone of the correct sort, I have mobile broadband available and I'm willing to sign-up and setup some form of payment just to pay <£1 parking free - quite a few assumptions then!
I assumed their insistence wouldn't be even remotely legal/enforceable but to avoid the whole mess I parked somewhere else anyway.
I then decided to knock-off an email to that council to ask them why they chose the heavy-handed "YOU MUST PAY" thing - given a lot of people won't be able to/won't want to do that - and their response was interesting.
They claimed a spate of theft/vandalism had left them with no money to replace broken machines - they also claimed they are fully legally entitled to demand payment made in this way and they rebuffed my suggestion that it was basically a form of discrimination/not really very clever.
So - does anyone have any idea of the legality of their position? I cannot imagine they can effectively restrict parking to people with a certain type of smartphone and the willingness to use it??
Note: they claim there is a phone number you can call to pay - however there was no sign of this on the machine I saw (and there was only 1 machine in this carpark) and that still requires you have a phone and a card of some sort??
Thx!
p.s. emphasising PUBLIC car park - PUBLIC land
That assumes I have a smartphone of the correct sort, I have mobile broadband available and I'm willing to sign-up and setup some form of payment just to pay <£1 parking free - quite a few assumptions then!
I assumed their insistence wouldn't be even remotely legal/enforceable but to avoid the whole mess I parked somewhere else anyway.
I then decided to knock-off an email to that council to ask them why they chose the heavy-handed "YOU MUST PAY" thing - given a lot of people won't be able to/won't want to do that - and their response was interesting.
They claimed a spate of theft/vandalism had left them with no money to replace broken machines - they also claimed they are fully legally entitled to demand payment made in this way and they rebuffed my suggestion that it was basically a form of discrimination/not really very clever.
So - does anyone have any idea of the legality of their position? I cannot imagine they can effectively restrict parking to people with a certain type of smartphone and the willingness to use it??
Note: they claim there is a phone number you can call to pay - however there was no sign of this on the machine I saw (and there was only 1 machine in this carpark) and that still requires you have a phone and a card of some sort??
Thx!
p.s. emphasising PUBLIC car park - PUBLIC land
grumpyscot said:
It may be PUBLIC, but the responsibility in law to run it lies with the Council. You want to park there, then you abide by their T&Cs. If you don't like then, park elsewhere. Tough, but that's life I'm afraid.
I emphasised that just because parking on private land is a whole different sport from what I can tell from a bit of Googling...I know there is (or at least was) a law which said that you could not be fined for non-payment in a carpark if the ticket machine was faulty and it seems to me that not repairing the machine and then demanding people use a not-accessible-to-all alternative is effectively the same thing??
Why is everything treated as discrimination nowadays?
In years before mobile phones and online payments, there were council payment machines that only took cash.
Was this deemed as discrmination to those that had no cash with them but wanted to use a credit / debit card to make payment?
In years before mobile phones and online payments, there were council payment machines that only took cash.
Was this deemed as discrmination to those that had no cash with them but wanted to use a credit / debit card to make payment?
Mandat said:
Why is everything treated as discrimination nowadays?
In years before mobile phones and online payments, there were council payment machines that only took cash.
Was this deemed as discrmination to those that had no cash with them but wanted to use a credit / debit card to make payment?
Have to agree with this I'm afraid! It's their carpark, their rules!In years before mobile phones and online payments, there were council payment machines that only took cash.
Was this deemed as discrmination to those that had no cash with them but wanted to use a credit / debit card to make payment?
For decades they've been forcing people to have and use certain types coin (which often have been covered in god knows what.)
Was this also a form of discrimination?
Your disgusting germy coins are legal tender, so they would have had to accept them if you had already parked and needed to pay, but for paying up front it's a little less clear.
Was this also a form of discrimination?
Your disgusting germy coins are legal tender, so they would have had to accept them if you had already parked and needed to pay, but for paying up front it's a little less clear.
If you want councils to do anything, nowadays, you gotta have an ism.
Tell them you were on your way to [insert religious institution] in order to attend an [insert sexual or physical] outreach meeting, and you missed that meeting because of their anti-cash discrimination policies against non-smartphone minorities and the council's [insert job title] may have committed [insert ism here]...
The parking meter will be fixed within days.
Tell them you were on your way to [insert religious institution] in order to attend an [insert sexual or physical] outreach meeting, and you missed that meeting because of their anti-cash discrimination policies against non-smartphone minorities and the council's [insert job title] may have committed [insert ism here]...
The parking meter will be fixed within days.
Some of these comments really don't stand up to scrutiny.
- If you want to pay by cash but the machine insists on card it's inconvenient. No biggie.
- If you want to pay by card but the machine insists on cash it's inconvenient. No biggie.
- If you want to pay by cash or card but the machine insists on smartphone it requires you to spank hundreds of pounds on something you may not be able to afford, or in my case, you have a smartphone but it's so ancient that it won't run a new enough OS for you to be able to install the prerequisite app. That's a totally different ball game. We're not all loaded.
I don't agree with it either, but as mentioned by others: their playset, their rules. If you don't like those rules, feel free to park elsewhere. However I'm afraid that it's probably something we'll all have to get used to soon as they've been doing away with coin meters on streets for years and replacing them with phone payments instead. The main car parks were only a matter of time. 
The BPA had a position paper on this from 2007:
http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/Li...
"Forum Members generally welcomed extra methods to pay for parking now that charges are often much more than‘loose change’- but there was also concern that all methods should be readily accessible and straightforward to operate.The keying ofVRM details into P & D machines was instanced as an unwelcome complication (this is to prevent the‘passing on’of tickets which are still valid – see also section 4.5 below).
There are many reasons why a motorist may not be willing or able to pay for parking by electronic means and the Forum questioned whether the introduction of cashless payment only parking is fair and,more importantly, whether it is legal. Denying the opportunity to pay for parking with cash might be construed as refusing to accept legal tender."
(Yes, I am aware that "legal tender" doesn't mean "you must let me pay with this")
http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/Li...
"Forum Members generally welcomed extra methods to pay for parking now that charges are often much more than‘loose change’- but there was also concern that all methods should be readily accessible and straightforward to operate.The keying ofVRM details into P & D machines was instanced as an unwelcome complication (this is to prevent the‘passing on’of tickets which are still valid – see also section 4.5 below).
There are many reasons why a motorist may not be willing or able to pay for parking by electronic means and the Forum questioned whether the introduction of cashless payment only parking is fair and,more importantly, whether it is legal. Denying the opportunity to pay for parking with cash might be construed as refusing to accept legal tender."
(Yes, I am aware that "legal tender" doesn't mean "you must let me pay with this")
I'm not really talking about discrimination - I'm talking about the common-sense reality that demanding someone use a device they may not own/services they may not have to pay a small sum of money is slightly bonkers.
For reference - the carpark is 80p an hour with a couple-of-hour limit - the most you can spend is well under £5...
There are still plenty of people without smartphones (and people with smartphones which the service doesn't support). I have one but I absolutely am not signing-up for a service/setting-up a payment system for an 80p parking charge because that's WAY too much work (for everyone involved).
I'm also suspicious that their demand you use that service whilst there's a broken machine in-situ may not be legally enforceable in the way that (at least at one time) you could not fine people for not paying if the machine was broken - that was my main question for this forum really cos I can't find anything concrete on that (most of the articles relate to private parking).
I appreciate they're trying to run a public service facing the assholery of people who smash machines (which cost £4500-a-time and they've had 6 destroyed this year alone) but making the customer jump hoops isn't the solution
Note: they have taken my feedback on-board as they say this is a 'trial' but they are insistent that it's legal which, if that's true, means they could make all the carparks work like this and that would - IMO - be a disaster (visitors would just clog-up the town instead)
For reference - the carpark is 80p an hour with a couple-of-hour limit - the most you can spend is well under £5...
There are still plenty of people without smartphones (and people with smartphones which the service doesn't support). I have one but I absolutely am not signing-up for a service/setting-up a payment system for an 80p parking charge because that's WAY too much work (for everyone involved).
I'm also suspicious that their demand you use that service whilst there's a broken machine in-situ may not be legally enforceable in the way that (at least at one time) you could not fine people for not paying if the machine was broken - that was my main question for this forum really cos I can't find anything concrete on that (most of the articles relate to private parking).
I appreciate they're trying to run a public service facing the assholery of people who smash machines (which cost £4500-a-time and they've had 6 destroyed this year alone) but making the customer jump hoops isn't the solution
Note: they have taken my feedback on-board as they say this is a 'trial' but they are insistent that it's legal which, if that's true, means they could make all the carparks work like this and that would - IMO - be a disaster (visitors would just clog-up the town instead)
CypSIdders said:
Why is there an assumption that everyone has a mobile phone?
A mobile phone is neither compulsory nor is it a legal requirement!
Fair point but 99.99% of people will have one and 99.99% of those will be smart phones that can easily download an app to pay for said parking. A mobile phone is neither compulsory nor is it a legal requirement!
I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone, even the few elderly people i know who are 80+ have them and they're all smart phones, basic ones admittedly but they still do the basics that an iPhone etc can do.
But as soneone else said, no-one is forced to park there.
Nickyboy said:
Fair point but 99.99% of people will have one and 99.99% of those will be smart phones that can easily download an app to pay for said parking.
I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone, even the few elderly people i know who are 80+ have them and they're all smart phones, basic ones admittedly but they still do the basics that an iPhone etc can do.
99.99%? Only 1 in 10000 adults don't have a smartphone? On a different planet, or in many more years, maybe. Not at the moment though. According to a Deloitte report, 4 out of 5 adults has a smartphone, meaning that 1 in 5, or 20%, which is approximately 12 million adults, don't. I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone, even the few elderly people i know who are 80+ have them and they're all smart phones, basic ones admittedly but they still do the basics that an iPhone etc can do.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37468560
That's a lot of people to exclude from being able to pay. Then there are those of us who don't like such payment apps. I've been the victim of credit card fraud and intrinsically don't trust mobile payment apps due to their astonishing lack of security. I would park elsewhere but I would be pretty pissed off.
Yeah, as quickquack says, I doubt anything like that many people have smartphones
Moreover, a survey in the US last year suggested more than 50% of smartphone owners NEVER install any Apps - even free ones!
You also need a data connection (I actually struggle to get a signal in that area - tho you could wander around to find one, it's not like you need to stand next to your car I guess)
Then they need a suitable payment method available (lots of people are super-phobic of spending money online still)
Those are all hurdles and, frankly, I doubt we'll EVER see 99% of people able and ready to use smartphone app payments - hell, I think 75% will take years - if ever...
Moreover, a survey in the US last year suggested more than 50% of smartphone owners NEVER install any Apps - even free ones!
You also need a data connection (I actually struggle to get a signal in that area - tho you could wander around to find one, it's not like you need to stand next to your car I guess)
Then they need a suitable payment method available (lots of people are super-phobic of spending money online still)
Those are all hurdles and, frankly, I doubt we'll EVER see 99% of people able and ready to use smartphone app payments - hell, I think 75% will take years - if ever...
QuickQuack said:
Nickyboy said:
Fair point but 99.99% of people will have one and 99.99% of those will be smart phones that can easily download an app to pay for said parking.
I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone, even the few elderly people i know who are 80+ have them and they're all smart phones, basic ones admittedly but they still do the basics that an iPhone etc can do.
99.99%? Only 1 in 10000 adults don't have a smartphone? On a different planet, or in many more years, maybe. Not at the moment though. According to a Deloitte report, 4 out of 5 adults has a smartphone, meaning that 1 in 5, or 20%, which is approximately 12 million adults, don't. I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone, even the few elderly people i know who are 80+ have them and they're all smart phones, basic ones admittedly but they still do the basics that an iPhone etc can do.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37468560
That's a lot of people to exclude from being able to pay. Then there are those of us who don't like such payment apps. I've been the victim of credit card fraud and intrinsically don't trust mobile payment apps due to their astonishing lack of security. I would park elsewhere but I would be pretty pissed off.
Edited by Yipper on Tuesday 11th April 00:13
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