Overtaking on double white lines

[mudstud]

I pulled out to overtake on a dashed line but there was a dip in the road so I held back from overtaking until I was sure the road was clear then proceded to overtake. While overtaking the dashed line changed to double lines. Plod duely dished out a fixed penalty for overtaking on double white lines. Anyone know if it is a crime not to be back in before the double white lines start?

[ca092003]

I believe so. There are regulations governing such thigns i.e. toe-in arrows, etc.. If you've got some time on your hands you could check that the site meets all of the relevant requirements.

Was there an oncoming car?

[pdV6]

Yep. You have to be back in before the doubles.
furthermore, you can't start an overtake on the "come back in" arrows.

Obviously this only applies to actually crossing the centreline, so bikes are ok to overtake if there's enough room between the "target" and centreline.

Does beg the question, though, if you couldn't see that the road ahead was clear, why did you stay out before overtaking? Surely you should have come back in?

Also, if the dip was deep enough to obscure the road ahead, the line should already have been doubled at the point where you initially pulled out...

[mudstud]

No oncoming car - just a dip in the road which could have obscured a similar low car! Ca092003, any idea where I can find the relevent requirements?

[pdV6]

www.highwaycode.gov.uk/15.shtml#141

There's a MUST NOT in there and a reference to the relevant law.

[streaky]

HC 141 : You MUST NOT overtake if you would have to cross or straddle double white lines with a solid line nearest to you (but see Rule 108) (RTA 1988 sect 36, TSRGD regs 10, 22, 23 & 24, ZPPPCRGD reg 24)

HC 108 : Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10mph or less.
(Laws RTA sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26)

Does 108 apply?

TSRGD 26 says:

26. - (1) A road marking for conveying the requirements specified in paragraph (2) and the warning specified in paragraph (7) shall be of the size, colour and type shown in diagram 1013.1, 1013.3 or 1013.4.

(2) The requirements conveyed by a road marking mentioned in paragraph (1) shall be that -

(a) subject to paragraphs (3) and (5), no vehicle shall stop on any length of road along which the marking has been placed at any point between the ends of the marking; and

(b) subject to paragraph (6), every vehicle proceeding on any length of road along which the marking has been so placed that, as viewed in the direction of travel of the vehicle, a continuous line is on the left of a broken line or of another continuous line, shall be so driven as to keep the first-mentioned continuous line on the right hand or off side of the vehicle.

Streaky

[streaky]

mudstud said:

No oncoming car - just a dip in the road which could have obscured a similar low car! Ca092003, any idea where I can find the relevent requirements?

This should help : note it is a PDF document - Streaky

[Podie]

You shoul dhave seen the tw@t at the weekend that DELIBERATELY overtook me at the weekend, crossing solid lines… who them proceeded to overtake the car in front by crossing solid lines AND entering a turning area for oncoming traffic… clearly he had to prove his manhood or something…

Put into context your penalty does sound a little harsh...

[ca092003]

Podie said:

You shoul dhave seen the tw@t at the weekend that DELIBERATELY overtook me at the weekend, crossing solid lines… who them proceeded to overtake the car in front by crossing solid lines AND entering a turning area for oncoming traffic… clearly he had to prove his manhood or something… Put into context your penalty does sound a little harsh...

Podie

I sometimes use the tail-end of such turning areas for a swift overtake, if the road is clear. Obviously, not over double whites as that is a big no no.

[Podie]

ca092003 said:

Podie said: You shoul dhave seen the tw@t at the weekend that DELIBERATELY overtook me at the weekend, crossing solid lines… who them proceeded to overtake the car in front by crossing solid lines AND entering a turning area for oncoming traffic… clearly he had to prove his manhood or something… Put into context your penalty does sound a little harsh... Podie I sometimes use the tail-end of such turning areas for a swift overtake, if the road is clear. Obviously, not over double whites as that is a big no no.

No problem in that... but on a blind crest and when it there are two roads leading off it (intersection on the A5)... bet you don't do it then!

[ca092003]

Podie said:

No problem in that... but on a blind crest and when it there are two roads leading off it (intersection on the A5)... bet you don't do it then!

Damn right. Safety first at all times.

[Podie]

ca092003 said:

Podie said: No problem in that... but on a blind crest and when it there are two roads leading off it (intersection on the A5)... bet you don't do it then! Damn right. Safety first at all times.

The way this guy careered through was amazing…

He'd sat on my bumper (at 60mph) for a bit, but I wasn't going to rise to it. He (slowly) over took uphill crossing solid lines and proceeded to get the "nescafe gesture" from myself, before overtaking the car in front of me, at an intersection on the A5… crossing solid lines, driving through a turning area for oncoming traffic… and then got a sarcastic round of applause from the car in front.

As I said… in light of this, the penalty dished out to the guy that opened the thread seems a little harsh.

[ca092003]

I had a nice drive down the A74 recently. I'd settle nicely into a suitable pace and was being matched by a guy in a TDCi Mondeo.

He followed me through a couple of dozen overtakes without incident. I then slowed for roadworks (30mph limit) and he whizzed past. He then overtake the car in front of me, again without any problems.

I caught up with him again as he is tootling along at just over the limit. He was stuck behind an artic. I was well back, keeping an eye on the car behind, which was gaining quite rapidly.

The road had a very gentle bend to the left and I had a perfect view of the road ahead. All it needed was a quick mirror, offside for a look and then past.

However, I stayed where I was given that I wasn't totally convinced about Mr Mondeo in front or the guy behind.

The guy behind decides to go for it, (trying to get past m, the mondeo and the artic), effectively putting on loads of power while behind me, and then swinging out at the last second. At more or less the same time, Mr Mondeo swings out. By this time, I've backed off and have started to brake.

How on earth they avoided each other I've no idea but someone was watching out for them that day. They both shot off and I trundled past the artic. They'll end up kiling someone. It can only be a matter of time.

[ca092003]

Podie

I agree that it does seem rather harsh in the circumstances, especially given that other people do get away with much much worse. BUT.....

I imagine that the authorities don't put double whites in for fun. They'll (hopefully) be there for a good reason.

I am sure that it is perfectly safe to cross double whites under certain circumstances but I don't think we want the great unwashed to be doing it.

[Podie]

True, true.

What's the phrase? "Anything is legal, until you get caught"...

[mudstud]

Thanks for all the learned responce - I'll go and pay my fine and collect my points. In fairness to the police they did say that several fatalities had been caused there. I should have said I can see why - a dashed line with obscured vision followed very shortly by a double line, but then probably just sour grapes on my part!

[z1000]

Highway Code said:

..... You may cross the line if necessary to pass a stationary vehicle,

As a motorcyclist , I presume cars in a traffic queue are stationary , or does it refer to parked vehicles ?

[streaky]

z1000 said:

Highway Code said: ..... You may cross the line if necessary to pass a stationary vehicle, As a motorcyclist , I presume cars in a traffic queue are stationary , or does it refer to parked vehicles ?

Given that it goes on to say: or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10mph or less. I think it would be prudent to assume - from an offence standpoint, if no other - that 'stationary' means not moving relative to the road - Streaky

[tvrgit]

ca092003 said:

I imagine that the authorities don't put double whites in for fun. They'll (hopefully) be there for a good reason.

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions state that solid white lines can only be used where forward visibility falls below a certain threshold.

The Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 5) sets out in an Appendix, IIRC, the method by which forward visibility must be measured, and the distance that has to be visible between two points. If you can see further, then no solid white lines are allowed. If the distance is less, then you can put them in (I'm not sure if you MUST, but you CAN).

So usually, they mean you can't see as far as you think you can. This will apply to drivers with their eyes at an average height off the road - wee sports cars will be lower, lorries will be higher, but that doesn't count in the assessment.

The law is clear - you must not cross them - and for a reason, usually anybody coming the other way can't see any further than you can, and even if you both think you can stop within the distance you can see to be clear, he effectively only has half that distance and so do you before you both reach the same point on the road, which is not a good idea if you're still moving in opposite directions, usually.

I'm not having a pop, I'm only answering the question!

[JonRB]

ca092003 said:

I imagine that the authorities don't put double whites in for fun. They'll (hopefully) be there for a good reason.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? However, I have noticed several roads that have for years had perfectly reasonable dashed lines being converted to solid double whites and the 'get in' arrows removed.
I'm now faced with perfectly good overtaking opportunities being made illegal by these lines.

Yet more evidence of the nanny state, I'm afraid.

>> Edited by JonRB on Wednesday 6th April 16:13