Debt collection agents - what can they do?
Discussion
Slightly sticky one here. I run a small letting agency and some tenants moved out of one of our houses recently. They haven't yet responded to any eMails about deductions from the deposit so the deposit is still in the DPS.
The house was empty for a while and a couple of days ago I went over there and discovered this on the doormat.
EA Notice by me, on Flickr
The name and address are correct (although redacted, obviously) and it claims to be for an outstanding Council Tax debt.
I've called the debt collection agency (Newlyn) who flatly refused to discuss any details with me (after hanging up on me twice.) I am struggling to get hold of anyone in the council who can have a sensible conversation with me, although I am waiting for a call back from one person.
I'm not that fussed whether the debt is paid although I would like the tenants to meet their responsibilities in this matter. (An aside but I happen to know for a fact that these tenants have left outstanding council tax debts elsewhere before.) However my bigger concern is that the property now has new tenants and I am very concerned that they shouldn't be hassled by a letting agent. The new tenants are not the most confident of people and a visit from a debt collector would frighten them.
My question therefore is what can the Debt Collection company do? I have told them that the people who owe the money are no longer resident there and that their forwarding address is outside of Europe. I have offered to give it to them but they declined to take it. Are they likely to return?
One option would be to pay the debt on behalf of the tenants and deduct it from their deposit. (Having carefully checked the Tenancy Agreement I AM allowed to withhold parts of the deposit to cover CT debts.) However I don't wish to establish any liability for future debts so wish to be VERY sure of the consequences of this option before doing so.
All help and advice welcomed.
The house was empty for a while and a couple of days ago I went over there and discovered this on the doormat.
EA Notice by me, on FlickrThe name and address are correct (although redacted, obviously) and it claims to be for an outstanding Council Tax debt.
I've called the debt collection agency (Newlyn) who flatly refused to discuss any details with me (after hanging up on me twice.) I am struggling to get hold of anyone in the council who can have a sensible conversation with me, although I am waiting for a call back from one person.
I'm not that fussed whether the debt is paid although I would like the tenants to meet their responsibilities in this matter. (An aside but I happen to know for a fact that these tenants have left outstanding council tax debts elsewhere before.) However my bigger concern is that the property now has new tenants and I am very concerned that they shouldn't be hassled by a letting agent. The new tenants are not the most confident of people and a visit from a debt collector would frighten them.
My question therefore is what can the Debt Collection company do? I have told them that the people who owe the money are no longer resident there and that their forwarding address is outside of Europe. I have offered to give it to them but they declined to take it. Are they likely to return?
One option would be to pay the debt on behalf of the tenants and deduct it from their deposit. (Having carefully checked the Tenancy Agreement I AM allowed to withhold parts of the deposit to cover CT debts.) However I don't wish to establish any liability for future debts so wish to be VERY sure of the consequences of this option before doing so.
All help and advice welcomed.
Thanks for your answers. If the property was still empty then I would be a bit more relaxed but there are new tenants in there now which is the basis of my concern. My worst case scenario is that an enforcement agent comes back, bluffs his way in and starts removing property which belongs to the new tenants. I know that this wouldn't be my problem to sort out but I am very keen that this shouldn't happen. As I said, the new tenants are a little timid.
SantaBarbara said:
The enforcement agent may remove some of the furnishings belonging to landlord
Thanks SB. Is this to say that the enforcement agent would be permitted to remove some of the furnishings belonging to the landlord or that there is a risk that this might happen? The house was let unfurnished so the only goods belonging to the landlord are washing machine/dishwasher etc, but there are now goods belonging to the new tenants, who are entirely unconnected to the people who owe the money. I guess you're going to have to speak to the council first to verify it's a legitimate claim and there's no data protection issue giving the collection agency the new address. If not, don't ask the debt collection company if they want the ex tenants new address, just give it to them. That's a good first step I think.
I would certainly advise the new tenants of the situation. They might be lacking in confidence but a heads up will improve matters. Advise them to keep doors and windows locked and provide proof of identity and perhaps tenancy agreement too when they turn up again. Perhaps through a window to be be safe. Also, tell them to give the bailiff your phone number. Once that is done, they should not return. I'm not sure how the bailiff can remove goods in their absence without breaking the law though...Is council tax serious enough to justify forced entry? And if they do try and push their way in if a door is opened, tell them to call 999 right away.
I would be weary about paying the debt and keeping it from the deposit. As you say, there's potential for disaster there. Let it be between the tenant, council and the debt collectors. Perhaps withholding it fully until it's sorted. Don't know the legalities on that though.
I would certainly advise the new tenants of the situation. They might be lacking in confidence but a heads up will improve matters. Advise them to keep doors and windows locked and provide proof of identity and perhaps tenancy agreement too when they turn up again. Perhaps through a window to be be safe. Also, tell them to give the bailiff your phone number. Once that is done, they should not return. I'm not sure how the bailiff can remove goods in their absence without breaking the law though...Is council tax serious enough to justify forced entry? And if they do try and push their way in if a door is opened, tell them to call 999 right away.
I would be weary about paying the debt and keeping it from the deposit. As you say, there's potential for disaster there. Let it be between the tenant, council and the debt collectors. Perhaps withholding it fully until it's sorted. Don't know the legalities on that though.
Edited by Thermobaric on Wednesday 2nd August 16:44
U called the bailiff? the notice doesn't look great as good or half decent quote legislation on the notice.
Its not clear if they have a controlled goods agreement or not.
If the tenants agreed to pay and the agent attended before they list goods against the debt to take if payment is not made. In that case if they have all gone bailiff cant do anything.
The tenants will prove there new and he will go I expect worst case
Its not clear if they have a controlled goods agreement or not.
If the tenants agreed to pay and the agent attended before they list goods against the debt to take if payment is not made. In that case if they have all gone bailiff cant do anything.
The tenants will prove there new and he will go I expect worst case
Had a similar situation when I bought my flat.
I had all sorts of debt companies chasing they previous tenants (it was let out before I bought), and one day I came back to a hand written envelope with similar to what you've posted. I called the agency, who at first were just rude and didn't want to know, but eventually listened. Had to send a copy of my solicitor papers to say that I now owned the premises, and that was that, they never came round again. If your new tenant just shows a copy of their tenancy agreement, or sends a copy to the agency, they can't return to the proper as the debtor is no longer there and there's proof.
They debt lies with the ex-tenant, not the new one, or you.
3 years down the line and I still get the odd debt letter for them every now again, but I always call and explain.
I had all sorts of debt companies chasing they previous tenants (it was let out before I bought), and one day I came back to a hand written envelope with similar to what you've posted. I called the agency, who at first were just rude and didn't want to know, but eventually listened. Had to send a copy of my solicitor papers to say that I now owned the premises, and that was that, they never came round again. If your new tenant just shows a copy of their tenancy agreement, or sends a copy to the agency, they can't return to the proper as the debtor is no longer there and there's proof.
They debt lies with the ex-tenant, not the new one, or you.
3 years down the line and I still get the odd debt letter for them every now again, but I always call and explain.
Watching can't pay we will take it away type shows, whenever this happens they simply ask for a copy of the signed and dated tenancy agreement. If the debt was incurred before the current tenants signed tenancy agreement they have to leave. Nothing they can do.
I would advise your new current tenants to have a copy to hand by the front door to show as soon as they start knocking. I would shove it out through the letterbox so they can't even gain entry. Once there in your f
ked.
I would advise your new current tenants to have a copy to hand by the front door to show as soon as they start knocking. I would shove it out through the letterbox so they can't even gain entry. Once there in your f
ked. Thermobaric said:
Not really. If they barge in past you or prevent you from closing the door, they're fked. They're not allowed to do that anymore.
Depends if the police agree on peaceful entry.ked. They're not allowed to do that anymore.Bailiffs I come across now again still bull crap if they can. The decent honest ones are few and far between.
I made a complaint about who was called to,an address I attended and pointed out the MOJ code with regards to assessing ability to pay rather than threats of taking goods.
SantaBarbara said:
The enforcement agent may remove some of the furnishings belonging to landlord
Wrong!Even if the defaulting tenants were still there, they can only remove goods they suspect belong to the debtor!
As has been said, once the new tenants present their tenancy agreement, which clearly states different names & dates, the enforcement agents can't touch anything.
PurpleMoonlight said:
The new tenants should only need to show their tenancy agreement and the debt collector should leave.
Strictly speaking, they don't need to do anything other than say he's got the wrong people & shut the door. It's the collector's responsibility to prove their identity, not the new tenants'.In general a good starting point is to check the person claiming to be a bailiff is actually a bailiff. Very few of these numpties that turn up at the door threatening to remove goods have any more right to do it than next doors cat.
https://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov.uk/
If the name is not on the list tell them to do one.
Although in this case the name is on the list they still can't take what clearly does not belong to the debtor or force entry.
https://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov.uk/
If the name is not on the list tell them to do one.
Although in this case the name is on the list they still can't take what clearly does not belong to the debtor or force entry.
What irks me is the one's on tv sometimes barge their way inside and then expect the occupier (who may the debtor's mother, partner etc) to prove they own the entire contents of the house. Surely they don't have the authority to exert this kind of pressure. If not could the police be called to remove them?
I too wonder who decided the high court writ process should not unreasonably expect the owner of a house full of goods to have receipts for all of those items. If an old man has a sideboard in his hall that was a wedding present in 1963, how does he prove ownership? It seems a bit far fetched, and the ability for these bailiffs to walk in without challenge makes it equally difficult to not end up losing your assets unfairly.
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