End of tenancy deductions..advise please.
End of tenancy deductions..advise please.
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fastbikes76

Original Poster:

2,450 posts

152 months

Monday 7th August 2017
quotequote all
I have just left a house we have been renting for almost 4 years. The LL came round a couple of weeks before we left , he was happy with the house apart from 2 blinds he wanted removed and holes filled. This was done and no further mention of it. After much chasing we find out the LL wanted to attend the property to discuss possible deductions with EA. Today (day 21 since we left) I finally found out he is not happy with 3 things.

1. The kitchen work surface is varnished wood. Inventory when we took out property states "General whitened areas, Heat ring marks, general scratches and small gouges, bubbling around sink, recently sealed, good condition for age.

The checkout states "significant wear to RHS of sink, Over varnished". What has happened is water has got in under the bubbling bit next to the sink as noted in the Inventory and lifted more varnish. The process had already started when we took on the property and despite best effort to prevent further water ingress including resealing sink twice, there is a patch that had gone very white. This was varnished over and is not the greatest in all honesty, I accept its worse than we took the house on but certainly not through neglect.

2. The front of the property had a Wisteria plant that grows like bloody wild fire..I've hated the thing from day one and sked before if I could chop it down. A week before we left I pruned it back a fair bit but not overly as I didn't want the LL moaning I had hacked at it. Ironically he is now moaning it needs pruning and is getting quotes. Well since I was told that this morning I drove past the property late afternoon and the Wisteria had been hacked right back, something that would have taken me no more than 10 minutes had I been presented the opportunity.

3. Ivy coming through wooden workshop/shed. Yes there was about 5 ivy shoots coming through, there has always been Ivy ingress into the shed and something I always took care off. Again this is the LL viewing the property 3 weeks after we vacated and at the time of year where everything is growing.

So a few questions if anyone can answer for me.

Should they have just had the Wisteria trimmed at some ludicrous price no doubt, or should they have given me the quote first so we can discuss possible solutions one of which would be me going back and doing it. Also what deductions would be fair for wielding a set of sheers for 10min given local gardeners in our area charge £10-15ph ?? Same again really for the 30 seconds it would take to remove fresh Ivy ingress into the shed.

Lastly regarding the work surface, how would they apportion costs...Do I have to stump up for a full sand down and revarnish on an already worn/scratched/marked counter that had got worse over time with normal day to day use ? Surely that would be betterment as they wont refurbish it to the half damaged state it was before hand ?

Deposit is with the DPS so any undisputed funds will hopefully be returned sharpish. The EA have been a shower of ste from day one with this house and glad to see the back of them. In all my years renting I have always treated the house as my own and never had a penny deducted yet. It burns me they want money to trim a bush and sort an already damaged counter at my expense mad

Thermobaric

725 posts

150 months

Monday 7th August 2017
quotequote all
Allow for a £10/£15 deduction if you really think it could have been pruned a bit more. This would cover the shed too.

Was the check out done on the day/within a few days of you returning keys? That should mention if there were ivy shoots in the shed. Photos e.t.c.

As for the worktop, before and after photos would be helpful but seeing as it is an existing issue, I'd say he'd struggle to charge you for it. If it was a freshly sanded and treated worktop then fair enough. You certainly won't be footing the bill for a full sand down and revarnish based on previous TDS decisions.

Stand your ground and take it to ADR if need be imo. It's likely to be too much hassle for the landlord so they'll see sense and drop it.

Edited by Thermobaric on Monday 7th August 20:12

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

156 months

Monday 7th August 2017
quotequote all
fastbikes76 said:
Deposit is with the DPS so any undisputed funds will hopefully be returned sharpish.
Were the check-in and -out inventories backed by photos?

Can't see any of them getting very far, even with pics. Without? Not a hope.

grumpy52

6,072 posts

196 months

Monday 7th August 2017
quotequote all
I would expect some wear if a Tennant had resided for 3 or more years , if you have done reasonable maintenance and kept the place clean all should be good .
Some have agreements that all holes must be repaired ,be in the same decorative order and carpets cleaned etc .
It's all down to what you agreed in the tenancy.
Some do try it on by charging for the same damage time after time .
Is it the LL thats highlited the faults or is it the Letting Agent ?

fastbikes76

Original Poster:

2,450 posts

152 months

Monday 7th August 2017
quotequote all
Thermobaric said:
Allow for a £10/£15 deduction if you really think it could have been pruned a bit more. This would cover the shed too.

Was the check out done on the day/within a few days of you returning keys? That should mention if there were ivy shoots in the shed. Photos e.t.c.

As for the worktop, before and after photos would be helpful but seeing as it is an existing issue, I'd say he'd struggle to charge you for it. If it was a freshly sanded and treated worktop then fair enough. You certainly won't be footing the bill for a full sand down and revarnish based on previous TDS decisions.

Stand your ground and take it to ADR if need be imo. It's likely to be too much hassle for the landlord so they'll see sense and drop it.

Edited by Thermobaric on Monday 7th August 20:12
We left on the 18th and checkout was done on the 21st. There were still viewings being conducted in that period. No mention of Ivy shoots on checkout although they did say the Wisteria could do with a light prune and then (Seasonal ?) next to it. It was pretty lively to be fair but having being turned down by LL on cutting or trimming several bushes before, I decided not to hack it back to what I would have wanted. Driving passed today and I saw they hacked it back to what I would have if given the opportunity. I would gladly offer an hour at local rates to shut them up. £15 out of £1700 is no biggie.

Work top was reasonable although marked in many places. The area in question is a lot worse now, but as before not through negligence or lack of care on our part. It was starting to bubble when we moved in and over the last 3 years 8 months its got progressively worse. I have resealed sink AGAIN but you can see the large white stain

.

TooMany2cvs said:
Were the check-in and -out inventories backed by photos?

Can't see any of them getting very far, even with pics. Without? Not a hope.
There were inventory pics so I suspect there will be checkout ones. The checkout clerk was a right numpty, she couldn't work the downstairs cloak room light yet found finger prints in the 'poorly lit' room. Then she managed to miss 6 smashed floor tiles in the middle of the conservatory from the huge leak we endured for 2 years. LL aware of them so no issue to us..just strange she could find finger prints in a dark room but not realise shes walking over smashed to fk tiles ??

grumpy52 said:
I would expect some wear if a Tennant had resided for 3 or more years , if you have done reasonable maintenance and kept the place clean all should be good .
Some have agreements that all holes must be repaired ,be in the same decorative order and carpets cleaned etc .
It's all down to what you agreed in the tenancy.
Some do try it on by charging for the same damage time after time .
Is it the LL thats highlited the faults or is it the Letting Agent ?
The house was decorated by us, all holes filled and Professionally cleaned when we left to the tune of £450, it was better and cleaner than when we took it on. The checkout clerk highlighted loads of issues, all of which were pre existing. Landlord met EA at the property on Saturday and said he was happy to leave everything else apart from Wisteria and Ivy needing pruning, and work surface sorted.

I'm happy to just offer an hour of local gardener rates for the Wisteria pruning, but what I want to try work out is how do they apportion costs for the counter. I admit its worse than when I took it on, and don't have an issue making a small contribution , but I wont be standing a full counter refresh at my expense !


Edited by fastbikes76 on Monday 7th August 20:30

Wings

5,970 posts

245 months

Monday 7th August 2017
quotequote all
It is usual for an opening inventory taking place at the start of the tenancy, in the company of the agent or landlord with the tenant, the written inventory produced is then signed by all parties, with each receiving a copy of the same. Then when the tenancy ends, the keys exchanged, then again a closing inventory is carried out, with all parties signing and receiving a copy of that same inventory.
From the OP’s posting I do not get the impression that a closing inventory was either carried out on the day the tenancy ended, and that the OP/tenant received a copy of the inventory at that same time.

When a tenant ends a tenancy, the departing tenant should request in writing to the agent, the return of the TENANT’s deposit monies, the tenant then allowing the agent ten (10) days to respond to that letter. If there is either no response to that letter, or no agreement to how much monies, if any, should be deducted from the deposit, then the departing tenant should raise a dispute with the Tenancy Deposit Scheme the deposit monies are protected with.

As to the issues the OP raised, the first the water stain would be a wear and tear issue, so not subject to any monetary deduction, the same I would apply to the gardening plant growth issues. , After a considerable long dry spell, the recent wet weather has seen an abundance of growth in gardens, and possibly since the OP/tenant’s departed the property, this growth has come about.

Any monetary deductions for minor issues, especially after a 4 year tenancy is a piff take.

ArmyMedic2012

66 posts

168 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
I recall handing back a property we were renting before myself and the missis got married. Paid £600 per month, on time, never bothered the LL with anything. The missis scrubbed the property from top to bottom, leaving it immaculate upon handover ( i was deployed at the time of the move) When the LL came round for his inspection, the agent already having done one, he demanded £50 to have the lawn cut! It had been raining almost continously for three weeks (Yorkshire for you) and like the OP previously posted, had this been mentioned to the missis by the agent, she would have happily mowed the lawn ( once the bloody rain had ceased)

QuickQuack

2,819 posts

131 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
As a LL, I would say that all the things you mention are just part of usual wear and tear. None of it would make me think twice returning every penny of the deposit. In your shoes, I would respond with a brief outline as in your OP, say that this is all part of reasonable wear and tear, remind the LL that the legislation does NOT allow deductions from the deposit to cover wear and tear, and that if you do not receive the full deposit within 48 hours, you will start a dispute with DPS.

Have a look at https://www.tenancydepositscheme.com/resources/fil...

recordman

443 posts

155 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
I'm a LL too and agree 100% with QuickQuack. You sound like a perfect tenant!

Zetec-S

6,910 posts

123 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
recordman said:
I'm a LL too and agree 100% with QuickQuack. You sound like a perfect tenant!
Agreed.

If you've been there 4 years and kept on top of the wisteria and ivy all that time then for that alone the landlord should be thankful! Plenty of tenants would have let the shed disappear into a mass of overgrown ivy.

superlightr

12,920 posts

293 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
fastbikes76 said:
The house was decorated by us, all holes filled and Professionally cleaned when we left to the tune of £450, it was better and cleaner than when we took it on. The checkout clerk highlighted loads of issues, all of which were pre existing. Landlord met EA at the property on Saturday and said he was happy to leave everything else apart from Wisteria and Ivy needing pruning, and work surface sorted.

I'm happy to just offer an hour of local gardener rates for the Wisteria pruning, but what I want to try work out is how do they apportion costs for the counter. I admit its worse than when I took it on, and don't have an issue making a small contribution , but I wont be standing a full counter refresh at my expense !


Edited by fastbikes76 on Monday 7th August 20:30
As others have said - its evidence and the TDS - before and after pics etc.
Does look pretty bad tbh the worktop- if that was down to you I wouldn't know - let us know what the TDS decide if it goes to them.

With a lot if items they may give a sliding scale of worth ie carpets generally about 7 years so if 3 years old likely to get a 50/50 split etc. Work tops I would have though would last longer say 15 years perhaps 20 years but they may argue that its been damaged hence the issue with it now.

We had a case with a work top being cracked - we could prove before/after and got estimate for a repair which may or may not work and then would have to be replaced or a simple 50/50 split for new. Tenants didn't want to risk the cost of the repair which may not have worked+ new and went with the 50/50 split.

BoRED S2upid

21,069 posts

270 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
Another LL here and I'd say after 4 years everything you have pointed out is normal wear and tear and at worst your offer of £10-£20 to cut the plants is the max they can expect. Ours has fking big hedges out the back that grow 3-4 ft every year id quite happily set fire to them. Every tenancy agreement has the tenant cutting these damn things and they happily sign every year there is a perfectly decent fence behind but they like the privacy they provide. Stuff like this must be a PITA for both tenants and agents.

Thermobaric

725 posts

150 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
Not sure how much hassle it is for the the agent. Makes a change from printing off tenancy agreements and changing the name on it heh.

SantaBarbara

3,244 posts

138 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
fastbikes76 said:
I have just left a house we have been renting for almost 4 years. The LL came round a couple of weeks before we left , he was happy with the house apart from 2 blinds he wanted removed and holes filled. This was done and no further mention of it. After much chasing we find out the LL wanted to attend the property to discuss possible deductions with EA. Today (day 21 since we left) I finally found out he is not happy with 3 things.

1. The kitchen work surface is varnished wood. Inventory when we took out property states "General whitened areas, Heat ring marks, general scratches and small gouges, bubbling around sink, recently sealed, good condition for age.

The checkout states "significant wear to RHS of sink, Over varnished". What has happened is water has got in under the bubbling bit next to the sink as noted in the Inventory and lifted more varnish. The process had already started when we took on the property and despite best effort to prevent further water ingress including resealing sink twice, there is a patch that had gone very white. This was varnished over and is not the greatest in all honesty, I accept its worse than we took the house on but certainly not through neglect.

2. The front of the property had a Wisteria plant that grows like bloody wild fire..I've hated the thing from day one and sked before if I could chop it down. A week before we left I pruned it back a fair bit but not overly as I didn't want the LL moaning I had hacked at it. Ironically he is now moaning it needs pruning and is getting quotes. Well since I was told that this morning I drove past the property late afternoon and the Wisteria had been hacked right back, something that would have taken me no more than 10 minutes had I been presented the opportunity.

3. Ivy coming through wooden workshop/shed. Yes there was about 5 ivy shoots coming through, there has always been Ivy ingress into the shed and something I always took care off. Again this is the LL viewing the property 3 weeks after we vacated and at the time of year where everything is growing.

So a few questions if anyone can answer for me.

Should they have just had the Wisteria trimmed at some ludicrous price no doubt, or should they have given me the quote first so we can discuss possible solutions one of which would be me going back and doing it. Also what deductions would be fair for wielding a set of sheers for 10min given local gardeners in our area charge £10-15ph ?? Same again really for the 30 seconds it would take to remove fresh Ivy ingress into the shed.

Lastly regarding the work surface, how would they apportion costs...Do I have to stump up for a full sand down and revarnish on an already worn/scratched/marked counter that had got worse over time with normal day to day use ? Surely that would be betterment as they wont refurbish it to the half damaged state it was before hand ?

Deposit is with the DPS so any undisputed funds will hopefully be returned sharpish. The EA have been a shower of ste from day one with this house and glad to see the back of them. In all my years renting I have always treated the house as my own and never had a penny deducted yet. It burns me they want money to trim a bush and sort an already damaged counter at my expense mad
How much was the deposit?

Can ou write direct o the DPS and request your deposit be repaid in full with no further delay

Thermobaric

725 posts

150 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
It doesn't work like that. If the LL thinks he has a legitimate claim to some of the deposit and can't be worked out with the tenant, that amount of the deposit will be held by the DPS/TDS whilst ADR takes place and then returned to whoever the ADR people side with.

fastbikes76

Original Poster:

2,450 posts

152 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
Zetec-S said:
Agreed.

If you've been there 4 years and kept on top of the wisteria and ivy all that time then for that alone the landlord should be thankful! Plenty of tenants would have let the shed disappear into a mass of overgrown ivy.
We spent over £300 per year having the hedges trimmed and kept neat. Tennants before us had left it and then hacked it to death upon leaving. Whilst not the most keen gardener I still kept everything trimmed back and mowed rather than let the jungle form.

superlightr said:
As others have said - its evidence and the TDS - before and after pics etc.
Does look pretty bad tbh the worktop- if that was down to you I wouldn't know - let us know what the TDS decide if it goes to them.

With a lot if items they may give a sliding scale of worth ie carpets generally about 7 years so if 3 years old likely to get a 50/50 split etc. Work tops I would have though would last longer say 15 years perhaps 20 years but they may argue that its been damaged hence the issue with it now.

We had a case with a work top being cracked - we could prove before/after and got estimate for a repair which may or may not work and then would have to be replaced or a simple 50/50 split for new. Tenants didn't want to risk the cost of the repair which may not have worked+ new and went with the 50/50 split.
Worktop is bad, maybe not quite as bad as photos imply, but still far from nice. It has worsened significantly from how it was when we moved in, but the process had already started with varnish bubbling and lifting on that edge against the sink. no matter how much you mad sure there was no water left after washing up, it would still seep under the varnish and lift more and more over the months and years. What I want to avoid however is being held responsible to refurbish all 6 meters of both worktops to as new condition when they are already marked and scuffed all over. It only needs sanding and revarnishing, the timber is not gouged or ruined.

SantaBarbara said:
How much was the deposit?

Can you write direct o the DPS and request your deposit be repaid in full with no further delay
Deposit is £1700.

Having rented for the last 20 years I have NEVER had a single penny deducted and never had to ask for my money back either. Usually I have the checkout, and get a call thanking me for the condition I left the house in and my deposit returned within days. Having bought our first house we were a little tied up with decorating before realising a couple of weeks had passed with no word on deposit. After chasing the EA for a few days it turned out the LL wanted to view property (3 weeks after vacating house). Now it turns out those are the 3 things he is not happy with and seeking quotes. We have requested our full deposit via the DPS on the 1st of July so its a waiting game now. The less than useless EA is not at work today and no one else can deal with my enquires as to quotes and time scales.

Thermobaric said:
It doesn't work like that. If the LL thinks he has a legitimate claim to some of the deposit and can't be worked out with the tenant, that amount of the deposit will be held by the DPS/TDS whilst ADR takes place and then returned to whoever the ADR people side with.
That's where we are now at, some 3 weeks later. Just waiting for the EA/LL to update with expected deductions so we can work out whats reasonable or not. TBH if he wants £150 or so for the counter so be it, I accept its now worse than when we took it on so will take that on the chin. I'll be fked if I'm paying for some fool to hack at the plants for 10 minutes though.

Burgmeister

2,206 posts

240 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
Hang on. You moved out 21 days ago and your deposit hasn't been returned and the LL is only now thinking about giving it back.

Sounds like LL is on dodgy ground to me.

fastbikes76

Original Poster:

2,450 posts

152 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
Burgmeister said:
Hang on. You moved out 21 days ago and your deposit hasn't been returned and the LL is only now thinking about giving it back.

Sounds like LL is on dodgy ground to me.
Indeed, vacated and handed keys back on the 18th July and checkout was done on the 21st. Viewings were still taking place between us leaving and checkout being done. We have had to chase for deposit and only now being told there are deductions being worked out.

Thermobaric

725 posts

150 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
EA sounds like an utter joke.

superlightr

12,920 posts

293 months

Tuesday 8th August 2017
quotequote all
You should have been told within 10 (working) days if there are to be deductions.

If you have started a claim with the TDS then you are in the right pipeline - they will eventually sort it out. May take a few months though.

It may be better to make an offer of £x to finalise things now and get the balance back else you will dispute all the deductions. That's how I would do it in your shoes. highlight worktop not new when you moved in and tds wont do a as new costing but sliding scale even if they did find some fault which you don't believe they will etc

To the LL if their agent I would recommend that they accept the x offer from the tenant if reasonable fair as it will save the hassle of going to the TDS and thus can finalise the deposit asap and all move on. We also charge LL a sum if they do want to dispute which normally outweighs any petty arguments which tends to focus the LL mind in - as well as my lovely personality and persuasiveness in managing their expectations and guiding them down the path of righteousness and fairness.





Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 8th August 16:48