Facebook groups and public liability insurance?
Discussion
I started a Facebook group for car enthusiasts in my area as we are not well served with clubs etc for modern cars (there are classic car clubs, but not modern/performance). We meet up monthly, but I'm reluctant to become a 'formal' club with money/membership/rules etc as it's just a very relaxed group.
My question to the collective wisdom of PH is, might we need some sort of public liability insurance if we organise any gatherings? Or could I say a condition of joining the group is that everyone is individually responsible for their actions and that as group admin I take no responsibility for their actions (or some other caveat)?
Thanks in anticipation of your thoughts....
My question to the collective wisdom of PH is, might we need some sort of public liability insurance if we organise any gatherings? Or could I say a condition of joining the group is that everyone is individually responsible for their actions and that as group admin I take no responsibility for their actions (or some other caveat)?
Thanks in anticipation of your thoughts....
I'd say yes, but then I would! :-p
You can attempt to opt out all you like but, if someone gets hurt at something you've organised then chances are the claim will land at your door. If nothing else, the Public Liability insurance will cover the legal costs of defending yourself against the suggestion that it was your fault. Or it will pay it but then recover from the actual party at fault.
You can attempt to opt out all you like but, if someone gets hurt at something you've organised then chances are the claim will land at your door. If nothing else, the Public Liability insurance will cover the legal costs of defending yourself against the suggestion that it was your fault. Or it will pay it but then recover from the actual party at fault.
If something happens and someone can find away to blame someone else for their own stupid actions, then they will - that is just how things are in todays world unfortunately.
Therefore it depends what you have to lose. Folk can only sue you for as much as you have.
If you own your house and cars outright and got plenty of cash in the bank, then that's a big risk.
If you're up to your eyes in debt with no assets................................
For what it's worth, a friend runs a facebook group to do with dog walking, and they arrange meet ups and other events - He took out liability insurance for the reasons I've listed above, as I'm pretty sure telling folk to be responsible for their own actions, won't absolve you of your legal responsibilities (but I'm not a lawyer)
Therefore it depends what you have to lose. Folk can only sue you for as much as you have.
If you own your house and cars outright and got plenty of cash in the bank, then that's a big risk.
If you're up to your eyes in debt with no assets................................
For what it's worth, a friend runs a facebook group to do with dog walking, and they arrange meet ups and other events - He took out liability insurance for the reasons I've listed above, as I'm pretty sure telling folk to be responsible for their own actions, won't absolve you of your legal responsibilities (but I'm not a lawyer)
- might be worth asking in the speed/plod/legal section*
Edited by hast2 on Thursday 10th August 07:23
I meet up monthly with a group of friends but we have no named organisers, no Facebook page or any other group presence on the internet or anywhere else. We are simply a group of friends with a common interest in classic cars.
'We' i.e. someone in the group, not always the same person, suggests an activity and we do it; a visit to a museum, a 'Drive and Dine' evening, next year I've arranged a visit to WW1 battlefields in France but it's all very ad hoc, there are no rules or regulations, we don't have a name, only a regular meeting time in a pub, same as any friends might do.
We've deliberately kept it this way to avoid 'red tape' as several of us (me included) are past car club officers who have experience of all that.
'We' i.e. someone in the group, not always the same person, suggests an activity and we do it; a visit to a museum, a 'Drive and Dine' evening, next year I've arranged a visit to WW1 battlefields in France but it's all very ad hoc, there are no rules or regulations, we don't have a name, only a regular meeting time in a pub, same as any friends might do.
We've deliberately kept it this way to avoid 'red tape' as several of us (me included) are past car club officers who have experience of all that.
I suppose the question is, would the individual(s) behind the page/group be held responsible, as I imagine it might be hard to demonstrate a facebook group, without more, is a legal entity in its own right.
If there is no clear owner/organiser behind the group (ie. there is a flat structure with a number of members), it might be hard to work out who to claim against (if not all collectively).
If there is no clear owner/organiser behind the group (ie. there is a flat structure with a number of members), it might be hard to work out who to claim against (if not all collectively).
It is currently a minefield and I suspect it is going to get worse.
There have been a few "meets" recently were people have been injured, not only have plod (and in one case I have been told the HSE) been involved. There is of course the ambulance chasers as well.
Just a couple of quick scenarios for you
1
Plod "who organised this event"
me " not really organised, we just meet up"
Plod "why have you got public liability insurance then? seems to me it was organised and therefore you are liable"
2
Plod "who organised this event"
me " A group of us did"
Plod "why haven't you got public liability insurance then? as you are liable"
There have been a few "meets" recently were people have been injured, not only have plod (and in one case I have been told the HSE) been involved. There is of course the ambulance chasers as well.
Just a couple of quick scenarios for you
1
Plod "who organised this event"
me " not really organised, we just meet up"
Plod "why have you got public liability insurance then? seems to me it was organised and therefore you are liable"
2
Plod "who organised this event"
me " A group of us did"
Plod "why haven't you got public liability insurance then? as you are liable"
This is all about your acceptable level of perceived risk.
Those talking of friends, the situation isn't really any different, if you are negligent and kill/injure one of your friends they can make a civil claim against you.
You can therefore take insurance to cover this risk, so personally i'd be assessing each event, the number of attendees etc.
There are scenarios that legally require insurance, i.e. third party motor cover, employers liability etc. but i'm not aware this is the case.
Those talking of friends, the situation isn't really any different, if you are negligent and kill/injure one of your friends they can make a civil claim against you.
You can therefore take insurance to cover this risk, so personally i'd be assessing each event, the number of attendees etc.
There are scenarios that legally require insurance, i.e. third party motor cover, employers liability etc. but i'm not aware this is the case.
bradjsmith88 said:
This is all about your acceptable level of perceived risk.
Those talking of friends, the situation isn't really any different, if you are negligent and kill/injure one of your friends they can make a civil claim against you.
You can therefore take insurance to cover this risk, so personally i'd be assessing each event, the number of attendees etc.
There are scenarios that legally require insurance, i.e. third party motor cover, employers liability etc. but i'm not aware this is the case.
Exactly. Those talking of friends, the situation isn't really any different, if you are negligent and kill/injure one of your friends they can make a civil claim against you.
You can therefore take insurance to cover this risk, so personally i'd be assessing each event, the number of attendees etc.
There are scenarios that legally require insurance, i.e. third party motor cover, employers liability etc. but i'm not aware this is the case.
Confirm there is no legal requirement for anyone to hold Public Liability.
Insurance is simply 'risk transfer'. If you perceive there to be a risk and you don't want to run that risk yourself you pass it onto the insurer.
I've been arranging insurance for a few not-for-profit events lately. When I point out they have an Employers' Liability exposure the usual response is that they're not employees, they're volunteers. Doesn't matter how friendly you are - if your mate gets run over marshalling the car park and can't work, he or his no-win-no-fee Solicitor are going to find someone to pin it on!
Thanks for your input everybody.
I've added the following to the description of the Facebook group. I'm not sure if it's sufficiently legally watertight (what is?!) but hopefully it shows where everybody stands:-
IMPORTANT: Disclaimer and liability waiver.
Excursions organised by members of this Facebook group are simply outings of interested like-minded people, they are not club or association sanctioned events. The group cannot be deemed responsible for any damage to property or individuals attending these events.
If you are unwilling to accept personal responsibility for your actions whilst attending an event advertised on this group page then please leave the group.
I've added the following to the description of the Facebook group. I'm not sure if it's sufficiently legally watertight (what is?!) but hopefully it shows where everybody stands:-
IMPORTANT: Disclaimer and liability waiver.
Excursions organised by members of this Facebook group are simply outings of interested like-minded people, they are not club or association sanctioned events. The group cannot be deemed responsible for any damage to property or individuals attending these events.
If you are unwilling to accept personal responsibility for your actions whilst attending an event advertised on this group page then please leave the group.
Edited by Le Vette on Thursday 10th August 16:02
When I used to arrange and lead drives out with the TVRCC, I used to add to the top of any route instructions a short disclaimer as follows:-
"Please remember that this is a social run in search of tea and buns, and not a race. Individuals are responsible for their own driving etiquette, route finding and obeying the highway rules"
Again, probably not water-tight legally but added after there was a report of the leader of a motorbike club run got in trouble with the police for a back-markers speeding. Maybe something else to consider?
"Please remember that this is a social run in search of tea and buns, and not a race. Individuals are responsible for their own driving etiquette, route finding and obeying the highway rules"
Again, probably not water-tight legally but added after there was a report of the leader of a motorbike club run got in trouble with the police for a back-markers speeding. Maybe something else to consider?
The Surveyor said:
When I used to arrange and lead drives out with the TVRCC, I used to add to the top of any route instructions a short disclaimer as follows:-
"Please remember that this is a social run in search of tea and buns, and not a race. Individuals are responsible for their own driving etiquette, route finding and obeying the highway rules"
Again, probably not water-tight legally but added after there was a report of the leader of a motorbike club run got in trouble with the police for a back-markers speeding. Maybe something else to consider?
Aha! A 'Treasure (i.e. tea & buns) Hunt', that's a whole new ball game "Please remember that this is a social run in search of tea and buns, and not a race. Individuals are responsible for their own driving etiquette, route finding and obeying the highway rules"
Again, probably not water-tight legally but added after there was a report of the leader of a motorbike club run got in trouble with the police for a back-markers speeding. Maybe something else to consider?
https://www.msauk.org/assets/guidetotreasurehunts2...
Riley Blue said:
Aha! A 'Treasure (i.e. tea & buns) Hunt', that's a whole new ball game
https://www.msauk.org/assets/guidetotreasurehunts2...
Nope, we never did any treasure hunts (couldn't think of anything worse https://www.msauk.org/assets/guidetotreasurehunts2...
), these were route notes to a country café. A proper 'cream tea run' 
Duke147 said:
Wasn't there a legendary thread a few years ago about a gazebo bouncing around damaging cars? Pretty sure that ended up at the organiser's door in terms of liability. Might have been more to it than "just" a meet-up, but I'll see if I can find it.
You're right, that was a little bit different. That was an official event organised by Haymarket for Pistonheads at an event called Pistonfest. That gazebo was owned by the man in charge on the ground who instantly admitted blame and insisted it went through their company insurance. It wasn't a group of mates meeting up and camping in a field on a jolly that had been organised through an event on Facebook.Edited by Robatr0n on Friday 11th August 00:48
The Surveyor said:
Riley Blue said:
Aha! A 'Treasure (i.e. tea & buns) Hunt', that's a whole new ball game
https://www.msauk.org/assets/guidetotreasurehunts2...
Nope, we never did any treasure hunts (couldn't think of anything worse https://www.msauk.org/assets/guidetotreasurehunts2...
), these were route notes to a country café. A proper 'cream tea run' Any event that requires marshals is more than a couple of like minded friends meeting up for something organised on FaceBook.
What is being described by the OP is no different to the many gatherings organised week in week out by people on PH all the time. These aren't official events, they are just a group of people meeting up and using the public road together. These events are just suggestions, with suggested routes etc.
It is no different to anyone organising a family dinner at a country pub, where various family members arrive from different locations by car.
Once you start introducing marshals and other such things it starts to look like a proper organised event, probably with the permission of the venue and someone needs to hold public liability. Some venues will then expect you to hold insurance and will ask for proof up front.
What is being described by the OP is no different to the many gatherings organised week in week out by people on PH all the time. These aren't official events, they are just a group of people meeting up and using the public road together. These events are just suggestions, with suggested routes etc.
It is no different to anyone organising a family dinner at a country pub, where various family members arrive from different locations by car.
Once you start introducing marshals and other such things it starts to look like a proper organised event, probably with the permission of the venue and someone needs to hold public liability. Some venues will then expect you to hold insurance and will ask for proof up front.
Riley Blue said:
I know, it was in jest but it illustrates how such 'fun' events are regulated. In any case, the TVRCC would (should) have had public liability insurance.
It does, and you're right you do need to think about these things because not everybody can be relied upon to be sensible.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff