30mph Limit on a private road?

[Raify]

The business park / estate type thingy where I work has the following sign at each entrance:

"Private road. No learner drivers please"

And it also has, official type, 30 limit signs.

Now of course, I don't drive like a complete simpleton, but doing 30 down a wide, clearly sighted road with a central reservation (and hardly any pedestrians) is a real bore.

So, like lots of other roads, I drive according to the conditions / hazards, not staring at my speedo. This generally ends up being 40ish. What would happen if I was caught by a Scamera / Streetcop in a van (I don't have a PH sticker) ?

Can a limit on a private road be enforced?

[^Slider^]

If the public have access at the time then yes i think it can be enforced.

[Raify]

Public have access all the time, it's also a residential estate (in a different area).

not really sure why it should be a private road in the first place?

[^Slider^]

It depends, it can be a private road technically if its not repaired at the public expense.
Some laws apply as per usual, some dont. It depends if the road is :
1) publically accessable or public have a right of way or
2) the road is repairable at the publics expense.

Sounds like it is an unadopted road maybe??

But as you say, the public have access therefore speed limits do apply and can be enforced.

[colonel_smith]

I did a full throttle launch(testing purposes only) in my EVO VI a few years back down a private road 5mph limit.My mistake was doing it with a police car behind me,it was dark and I had no idea it it was the rozzers...Anyway they had a good look around the car and I was thinking they are going to do me and then he spoke the magic words "we cannot do anything as it is a private road"

[pdV6]

One for the BiB to answer, I guess, but if a road has a sign at the start of it saying "private road", is it technically accessible to the public, i.e. if you didn't have a good reason for driving along it (e.g. to access sonebody's house or business) would you actually be trespassing?

Short of gating off the end of a private road, how would you ever be able to keep the great unwashed from using it whenever they saw fit?

Or is it just a case of "private road" means "the council doesn't pay for the upkeep here, so don't come moaning to us if your wheel falls off in a pothole"?

[JonRB]

On the industrial estate I currently work on, there is a sign as you enter clearly saying "Private road. No public right of way", which does make me wonder how enforceable the on-site speed limit of 25mph is.
Unfortunately the CCTV cameras on poles everywhere do tend to put me off from testing how enforceable this limit is.

[^Slider^]

Basically...

A private road is one where the public do not have access and only persons permitted to be on that road have persission to be there.

Such as a long driveway to get to 3 houses, its still a road per se but the fact that public do not have access makes the road private.

Another case..

A road in an industrial estate, this road is private and only persons whom are going to the business premis are permitted access, this includes the public so during office hours the road is accessable to the public. Out of hours it could be deemed to be a private road. (new regs i think state that it will only become private if there is a physical barrier at the entry point)

So a 24 hr tescos carpark will be a public road at all times whereas a normal 10pm closing tescos could be deamed to be a private road.

Does that help and make any sense??

Oh, if its a totally private road and the regs by the owner state that there is a speed limit, should you exceed the limit they are able to enforce with civil fines i think.

Gareth

[^Slider^]

pdV6 said:

One for the BiB to answer, I guess, but if a road has a sign at the start of it saying "private road", is it technically accessible to the public, i.e. if you didn't have a good reason for driving along it (e.g. to access sonebody's house or business) would you actually be trespassing? Short of gating off the end of a private road, how would you ever be able to keep the great unwashed from using it whenever they saw fit? Or is it just a case of "private road" means "the council doesn't pay for the upkeep here, so don't come moaning to us if your wheel falls off in a pothole"?

You could technically be tresspassing but if the public had access at the material time, upon payment or otherwise then they have access. Ideally for tresspass a barrier would need to be in place so they had to clear a barrier to prove the offence.

You cant keep the great unwashed off roads public or private unless its secured by a gate. (bear in mind tresspass is a summary only offence so they can be summons to court only)

Private road by definition is a road which is not reparable at the publics expense. But dont get Private road accessable to the public and private road noit accessable fall into different rule brackets so certain laws may or may not be able to be enforced depending on which one it is.

[JonRB]

^Slider^ said:

Oh, if its a totally private road and the regs by the owner state that there is a speed limit, should you exceed the limit they are able to enforce with civil fines i think.

But not points. Hmmm.

(Actually, all they would have to do is lean heavily on my client - their tenant - and I'd be in an untenable position a.k.a. deep shit. So I think I'll be a good boy. )

[gone]

^Slider^ said:

(bear in mind tresspass is a summary only offence so they can be summons to court only)

Trespass is a civil offence. It is dealt with in a county court and not a criminal one. I think you mean this and not that it is a summary offence which means triable by magistrates court only and not the crown court!

[^Slider^]

gone said:

^Slider^ said: (bear in mind tresspass is a summary only offence so they can be summons to court only) Trespass is a civil offence. It is dealt with in a county court and not a criminal one. I think you mean this and not that it is a summary offence which means triable by magistrates court only and not the crown court!

Yeah sorry thats what i meant. A local level not a criminal one.

[R400]

I was lead to believe that if it is indeed privately owned and on private land and not maintained by the highways agency/local council, there is an 'unlimited' speed limited i.e none. Im not aware of any president involving anyone being prosecuted for speeding on a private road and getting points. You may get a civil prosecution though, maybe? not heard about that either.. yet.

[^Slider^]

Provided the public do not have access!

You cannot get points but there have been stories of employees being fined from the pay packet for exceeding speed limits on private roads where there is no public access by the company controlling the road.

>> Edited by ^Slider^ on Monday 11th April 17:45

[streaky]

^Slider^ said:

gone said: ^Slider^ said: (bear in mind tresspass is a summary only offence so they can be summons to court only) Trespass is a civil offence. It is dealt with in a county court and not a criminal one. I think you mean this and not that it is a summary offence which means triable by magistrates court only and not the crown court! Yeah sorry thats what i meant. A local level not a criminal one.

The primary distinction is between 'civil' and 'criminal'. The courts, civil and criminal, are then separated by other criteria (the type of case heard for civil, and the severity of the crime and sentencing for criminal.

The following applies in England and Wales, other UK countries vary.

Civil

There are 228 county courts handling claims in contract and in tort (and 179 of these also deal with family issues).

Issues ranging from defamation to divorce are handled by county courts and High Courts. Magistrates' courts have limited civil jurisdiction: in family matters (when they sit as a Family Proceedings Court) and in miscellaneous civil orders.

The High Court has three divisions:

* the Queen's Bench Division: which deals with disputes relating to contracts, general commercial matters (in a specialist Commercial Court), and breaches of duty – known as 'liability in tort' – covering claims of negligence, nuisance or defamation. Within this Division too, the Administrative Court deals with applications for judicial review of the actions of public bodies, and has the power to declare the action of an individual, department or public body unlawful;
* the Chancery Division: which deals with disputes relating to land, wills, companies and insolvency;
* the Family Division: which deals with matrimonial matters, including divorce, and the welfare of children.

The compass of civil 'trials' embraces also special tribunals (e.g. employment). Other forms of mediated redress also exist.

[Criminal]

There are two tiers of trial courts, the Magistrates Courts and the Crown Courts. All cases are initially presented at a Magistrates Court. The magistrates can either proceed or pass the case to the Crown Court - according to the type of crime and also at the request of the accused (right to trial by jury).

Appeals from the Magistrates Court go to the Crown Court (to be reheard). Appeals from the Crown Court go to the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division). A further appeal can be made to the House of Lords on points of law of public importance, if permission is given.

Appeals in both civial and criminal systems can be heard in the High Court - but on on matters of law only for criminal cases.

The right of Peers of the Realm to be tried at the bar of the House of Lords was withdrawn in 1948.

Hope this helps.

Streaky

[S Works]

JonRB said:

On the industrial estate I currently work on, there is a sign as you enter clearly saying "Private road. No public right of way", which does make me wonder how enforceable the on-site speed limit of 25mph is. Unfortunately the CCTV cameras on poles everywhere do tend to put me off from testing how enforceable this limit is.

How exactly is a CCTV camera going to PROVE you were speeding? No accurate measurement, only an arbitrary use of the white lines on the middle of the road and a stopwatch to work out approx speed... are they REALLY going to bother? I very much doubt it.

^Slider^ said:

Oh, if its a totally private road and the regs by the owner state that there is a speed limit, should you exceed the limit they are able to enforce with civil fines i think.

You 'think'? So if as a BiB you don't know would you even bother to stop someone? If you can't prove it, or you don't know the distinction is it going to be hard to press any sort of charge? Not having a go, just trying to illustrate that this appears to be a very grey area (at least from the experienced readers of this thread so far).

If a civil action is brought again, onus of proof is on the prosecutor and evidence would surely be hard to find to PROVE that someone was speeding. Plus we still don't have evidence here of any test cases which clearly explain the law around this. Any solc's barristers or BiB care to expand with some facts please?

And to bring a case of trespass.... come on, is anyone going to seriously bother? In your defence you can surely just say you were lost and looking for somewhere else!!

Which brings me nicely onto the M6 tollroad and the question "If it's a privately run road which you pay for the right to use (over and above the cost of road tax) should the BiB be allowed to sit atop a bridge and zap you for speeding on it?" I for one think not.

>> Edited by S Works on Wednesday 13th April 12:13

[kevinday]

S Works said:

If a civil action is brought again, onus of proof is on the prosecutor and evidence would surely be hard to find to PROVE that someone was speeding.

In a civil action it is the claimant, not a prosecutor and the evidence required is to the level of 'in the balance of probabilities' not 'beyond reasonable doubt'. IMHO a civil case could succeed based on CCTV evidence.