Probate questions
Discussion
My old man passed away last year, and I have been slowly sorting a few things out. I'm sole beneficiary and executor of his will. His estate was essentially some fairly nominal savings (his bank transferred the funds to me on production of the will), a house in Spain (worth circa €40k) and a single garage in a block (not attached to any property/houses) again worth a fairly low amount of about £4k. The Spanish legal system is sorting the house, and I'm trying to sell the garage, for which I have a buyer, however the deeds to the garage are obviously still in his name, not mine.
I did not think I needed to worry about probate, and that IHT would not apply due to the values, however it would appear that I do need probate to get the garage deeds changed to my name so I can sell. I understand that this could take anything up to 9 months...eek!
Is there a quick way around this? I don't want to spend huge amounts on legal fees for a £4k garage for obvious reasons. However I don't want the buyer to get impatient and pull out. I've heard about DIY probate options...has anyone got any experience here?
Thanks in advance!
I did not think I needed to worry about probate, and that IHT would not apply due to the values, however it would appear that I do need probate to get the garage deeds changed to my name so I can sell. I understand that this could take anything up to 9 months...eek!
Is there a quick way around this? I don't want to spend huge amounts on legal fees for a £4k garage for obvious reasons. However I don't want the buyer to get impatient and pull out. I've heard about DIY probate options...has anyone got any experience here?
Thanks in advance!
I'm doing probate too which seems quite workable in simple affairs without complication or IHT. If you are diligent and organised it's just a few forms basically although you should have evidence for amounts you quote or to back up the value of garage stated etc if you are getting close to IHT threshold.
Once you have probate granted you may want to use a solicitor for Land Registry re-registering title of the garage although you could again DIY on a straightforward low value asset that isn't mortgaged etc.
Once you have probate granted you may want to use a solicitor for Land Registry re-registering title of the garage although you could again DIY on a straightforward low value asset that isn't mortgaged etc.
Ken Figenus said:
I'm doing probate too which seems quite workable in simple affairs without complication or IHT. If you are diligent and organised it's just a few forms basically although you should have evidence for amounts you quote or to back up the value of garage stated etc if you are getting close to IHT threshold.
Once you have probate granted you may want to use a solicitor for Land Registry re-registering title of the garage although you could again DIY on a straightforward low value asset that isn't mortgaged etc.
This but be careful.Once you have probate granted you may want to use a solicitor for Land Registry re-registering title of the garage although you could again DIY on a straightforward low value asset that isn't mortgaged etc.
on an estate like this i would expect you would have to pay about £500+vat+dsbs to a solicitor to get the grant for you fwiw so you have an idea of how 'valuable' it is to you to deal with it instead of handing it over.
Must say it is not my area but i would have thought that you would need the Grant of Probate to deal with the Spanish property as well but i know even less about Spanish law than i do probate!
Hard-Drive said:
My old man passed away last year, and I have been slowly sorting a few things out. I'm sole beneficiary and executor of his will. His estate was essentially some fairly nominal savings (his bank transferred the funds to me on production of the will), a house in Spain (worth circa €40k) and a single garage in a block (not attached to any property/houses) again worth a fairly low amount of about £4k. The Spanish legal system is sorting the house, and I'm trying to sell the garage, for which I have a buyer, however the deeds to the garage are obviously still in his name, not mine.
I did not think I needed to worry about probate, and that IHT would not apply due to the values, however it would appear that I do need probate to get the garage deeds changed to my name so I can sell. I understand that this could take anything up to 9 months...eek!
Is there a quick way around this? I don't want to spend huge amounts on legal fees for a £4k garage for obvious reasons. However I don't want the buyer to get impatient and pull out. I've heard about DIY probate options...has anyone got any experience here?
Thanks in advance!
You should be able to do the paper work your self for that degree of simplicity I did not think I needed to worry about probate, and that IHT would not apply due to the values, however it would appear that I do need probate to get the garage deeds changed to my name so I can sell. I understand that this could take anything up to 9 months...eek!
Is there a quick way around this? I don't want to spend huge amounts on legal fees for a £4k garage for obvious reasons. However I don't want the buyer to get impatient and pull out. I've heard about DIY probate options...has anyone got any experience here?
Thanks in advance!
Rude-boy said:
Must say it is not my area but i would have thought that you would need the Grant of Probate to deal with the Spanish property as well but i know even less about Spanish law than i do probate!
My Father died 2 years ago, leaving a house in the UK and one in Spain, I was executor and a joint beneficiary with my 2 siblings. Solicitor here sorted out UK probate but it took quite some time, he wanted nothing to do with the Spanish side of things.
The Spanish side was dealt with much quicker by a Spanish Solicitor, all sorted in just a few months - He said that they have to get everything registered/changed within 6 months of death (not sure of the consequences of not doing so?) but I was told that procedures vary in different regions of Spain - ours was Balearic Islands.
I only made 1 visit to the Spanish Solicitor, basically to give him power of attorney and he then dealt with it all very efficiently and his charges were just a fraction of the UK Solicitor's although, to be fair the Spanish estate value was lower than and the affairs simpler than here.
I had the Spanish property sold before the UK property was even on the market although I am still waiting for 2 of 3 (small) tax/stamp duty rebate payments from the Spanish authorities, I got one early this year and am informed the others will arrive but no idea when but it's not a large amount so not a huge problem if mañana never comes.
It probably did help that my Father was very organised and had covered every base including leaving a Spanish will, I'm not sure how much a UK will only would have slowed things down? but for a start we would have had to have it officially translated/certified by notary etc.
Good luck.
Edited by catso on Tuesday 7th November 22:29
catso said:
My Father died 2 years ago, leaving a house in the UK and one in Spain, I was executor and a joint beneficiary with my 2 siblings.
Solicitor here sorted out UK probate but it took quite some time, he wanted nothing to do with the Spanish side of things.
The Spanish side was dealt with much quicker by a Spanish Solicitor, all sorted in just a few months - He said that they have to get everything registered/changed within 6 months of death (not sure of the consequences of not doing so?) but I was told that procedures vary in different regions of Spain - ours was Balearic Islands.
I only made 1 visit to the Spanish Solicitor, basically to give him power of attorney and he then dealt with it all very efficiently - he did say that it all had to be done within 6 months of death. It was and his charges were just a fraction of the UK Solicitor's although, to be fair the Spanish estate value was lower than and the affairs simpler than here.
I had the Spanish property sold before the UK property was even on the market although I am still waiting for 2 of 3 (small) tax/stamp duty rebate payments from the Spanish authorities, I got one early this year and am informed the others will arrive but no idea when but it's not a large amount so not a huge problem if mañana never comes.
It probably did help that my Father was very organised and had covered every base including leaving a Spanish will, I'm not sure how much a UK will only would have slowed things down? but for a start we would have had to have it officially translated/certified by notary etc.
Good luck.
Very useful, thanks. Solicitor here sorted out UK probate but it took quite some time, he wanted nothing to do with the Spanish side of things.
The Spanish side was dealt with much quicker by a Spanish Solicitor, all sorted in just a few months - He said that they have to get everything registered/changed within 6 months of death (not sure of the consequences of not doing so?) but I was told that procedures vary in different regions of Spain - ours was Balearic Islands.
I only made 1 visit to the Spanish Solicitor, basically to give him power of attorney and he then dealt with it all very efficiently - he did say that it all had to be done within 6 months of death. It was and his charges were just a fraction of the UK Solicitor's although, to be fair the Spanish estate value was lower than and the affairs simpler than here.
I had the Spanish property sold before the UK property was even on the market although I am still waiting for 2 of 3 (small) tax/stamp duty rebate payments from the Spanish authorities, I got one early this year and am informed the others will arrive but no idea when but it's not a large amount so not a huge problem if mañana never comes.
It probably did help that my Father was very organised and had covered every base including leaving a Spanish will, I'm not sure how much a UK will only would have slowed things down? but for a start we would have had to have it officially translated/certified by notary etc.
Good luck.
Big question, are you saying the Spanish property was sold before you had the UK grant of probate? If so, that would be good news to me.
I'm afraid I buried my head in the sand for well past the 6 month mark, I think there are tax implications if you miss this deadline, however my father's place was below the threshold so it was no big deal. Like you, I also did the PoA thing with a Spanish solicitor. No will was registered with the Madrid office, so we're having to use a UK one. There are some other complications too but it all seems to be going roughly the right way.
But do please let me know if you needed probate for the Spanish house...thanks in advance.
.
Hard-Drive said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Is the garage still on deeds, or is it registered with the land registry?
Sorry, I'm no expert here so I'm not sure I can answer your question exactly. I have deeds in my late father's name, however I don't know if it's registered with the land registry too?If it's not registered, then it will need to be registered as part of the sale, but not necessarily by you - the buyer's sol can do that, so the fact it's not been updated to your name shouldn't be the end of the world.
You can search the LR website to see if it's registered.
Hard-Drive said:
Very useful, thanks.
Big question, are you saying the Spanish property was sold before you had the UK grant of probate? If so, that would be good news to me.
I'm afraid I buried my head in the sand for well past the 6 month mark, I think there are tax implications if you miss this deadline, however my father's place was below the threshold so it was no big deal. Like you, I also did the PoA thing with a Spanish solicitor. No will was registered with the Madrid office, so we're having to use a UK one. There are some other complications too but it all seems to be going roughly the right way.
But do please let me know if you needed probate for the Spanish house...thanks in advance.
.
Yes the property in Spain was sold before UK probate was granted, it was all handled completely separately from the UK solicitor, the only thing the Spanish authorities wanted from us was a copy of the UK death certificate (he died here) and of course the Spanish will, which the Spanish Solicitor was already holding. I'm sure it was a big help that he had made a will and had a good, English speaking solicitor over there. Big question, are you saying the Spanish property was sold before you had the UK grant of probate? If so, that would be good news to me.
I'm afraid I buried my head in the sand for well past the 6 month mark, I think there are tax implications if you miss this deadline, however my father's place was below the threshold so it was no big deal. Like you, I also did the PoA thing with a Spanish solicitor. No will was registered with the Madrid office, so we're having to use a UK one. There are some other complications too but it all seems to be going roughly the right way.
But do please let me know if you needed probate for the Spanish house...thanks in advance.
.
I think you're right on the tax implication of the 6 months, not certain as it didn't apply to us.
As for the PoA I and one Sister did it in person with the Spanish Solicitor/Notary, my other Sister couldn't get there within the time frame and so did it here using the form the Solicitor sent - In Spanish but with English translation (if done here needs official translation adding to cost and complication - as, I assume a UK will would?) and using a UK notary to 'legalise' it.
With regards to the refund I'm awaiting, it is a refund of a certain kind of (stamp) duty - 3 separate payments, one for each 'owner'. Mine was repaid early this year but we are still waiting for those of my 2 Sisters but as it's only a few hundred euros and we didn't even know it was to be refunded until after we'd sold/paid anyway it's not a huge problem if we don't get it.
It definitely looks like you’re well short of the IHT threshold, in which case you would be doing an IHT 205 form.
My father died in January this year, and I discovered that he hadn’t successfully done probate for my mother who died 6 years ago, so I ended up having to do both.
Mum was below the threshold, so it was a 205. I can’t remember exactly how long it took, but I think it was less than 2 months. Dad’s probate took longer because IHT was involved (hence an IHT 400 with loads of additional schedules), and HMRC are very slow at providing the necessary reference number (without which it’s impossible to pay them anything, which means you can’t proceed with probate). It maybe took about 3 to 4 months.
Even though IHT is clearly not going to be involved in your case, I would strongly recommend that you get a proper valuation of the Spanish property on the date of your father’s death. Ideally you should use a surveyor, but I guess an estate agent’s valuation will suffice where you’re so far below the IHT threshold. If the property sells before probate (assuming the Spanish legal system allows that) and if the sale price isn’t going to push you into IHT territory, then I guess you could also just use the sale price.
My only hesitation is whether you can still go down the 205 route if a foreign property is involved. I think you can if the property is below a threshold value. The guidance notes will tell you.
My father died in January this year, and I discovered that he hadn’t successfully done probate for my mother who died 6 years ago, so I ended up having to do both.
Mum was below the threshold, so it was a 205. I can’t remember exactly how long it took, but I think it was less than 2 months. Dad’s probate took longer because IHT was involved (hence an IHT 400 with loads of additional schedules), and HMRC are very slow at providing the necessary reference number (without which it’s impossible to pay them anything, which means you can’t proceed with probate). It maybe took about 3 to 4 months.
Even though IHT is clearly not going to be involved in your case, I would strongly recommend that you get a proper valuation of the Spanish property on the date of your father’s death. Ideally you should use a surveyor, but I guess an estate agent’s valuation will suffice where you’re so far below the IHT threshold. If the property sells before probate (assuming the Spanish legal system allows that) and if the sale price isn’t going to push you into IHT territory, then I guess you could also just use the sale price.
My only hesitation is whether you can still go down the 205 route if a foreign property is involved. I think you can if the property is below a threshold value. The guidance notes will tell you.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Wednesday 8th November 07:59
littleredrooster said:
...and just as an aside, you can choose whichever Probate Office you want to deal with it - doesn't have to be local. I chose the one with the shortest waiting time which was 200 miles away.
I used Liverpool and it's "open-house" and we only had to go at all to witness the signatures and that can be done by a local solicitor. They interview people if there's an issue but the one I did was very straightforward, although the questions about relatives - children of half-blood uncles and aunts of the deceased, for example, are bonkers. No-one in our family could answer so I left a lot of that section blank and no-one queried it.OP might not be able to do this because of foreign property, but I got invited to the Beta test of the online service which I think is generally available now if the circumstances fit. So I did the IHT clearance online and then did the Probate.
"Online" is a bit of a misnomer as the form has to be printed off and posted with the Will etc.
In my case the whole thing was pretty quick - about a month in total.
When my Mum passed away I was sole beneficiary aswell, and only had one property to deal with and it was extremely quick and well done. The initial paperwork is a pain, a huge load of forms to deal with.
Selling the house was a pain in the arse in the UK, as was insuring an empty house. I also ended up paying full council tax despite it being empty, something I wrote to CAB and MP's about. No idea about how Spain will deal with things sorry.
I did probate all myself, I know a few people into finance and legal stuff so felt it the best way, and my Mum wanted me to save money so left me all the details bless her! It's not that painful really. I found the hard stuff dealing with companies about her shopping, cards etc. Just say the person is dead and watch them fall into line!!
Quite why there would be such a delay in IHT with a garage is rather silly. Most of them would either be council owned or in a council plot or owned by a private rental firm, so likely to be bought back.
Selling the house was a pain in the arse in the UK, as was insuring an empty house. I also ended up paying full council tax despite it being empty, something I wrote to CAB and MP's about. No idea about how Spain will deal with things sorry.
I did probate all myself, I know a few people into finance and legal stuff so felt it the best way, and my Mum wanted me to save money so left me all the details bless her! It's not that painful really. I found the hard stuff dealing with companies about her shopping, cards etc. Just say the person is dead and watch them fall into line!!
Quite why there would be such a delay in IHT with a garage is rather silly. Most of them would either be council owned or in a council plot or owned by a private rental firm, so likely to be bought back.
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