Legalese - does this paragraph mean what I think it means?
Legalese - does this paragraph mean what I think it means?
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Discussion

mondeoman

Original Poster:

11,430 posts

296 months

Sunday 5th November 2017
quotequote all
“The Transferee grants out of the property for the benefit of the Transferor and the Management Company the First Rentcharge and the Estate Rentcharge”

I read this to mean that the First Rentcharge and the Estate Rentcharge are payable by the Transferee, but not clear who gets paid? Is it the Transferor or the Management Company, or both, or does this mean that the Transferee guarantees to pay on behalf of the Transferor and/or the Management Company?

Can anyone give a word by word translation? Please.

mondeoman

Original Poster:

11,430 posts

296 months

Sunday 5th November 2017
quotequote all
Its preceded by two clauses:

To pay the First Rentcharge to the Management Company
To pay the Estate Rentcharge to the Management Company


So I think there is confusion between the clauses....

How does the Transferor get a benefit from the preceding clause if all payments are to the Management Company?

anonymous-user

84 months

Sunday 5th November 2017
quotequote all
This may help -

http://www.shoosmiths.co.uk/client-resources/legal...

Rentcharge is a wky and old fashioned word used by land lawyers (an old fashioned bunch). It can refer to both a payment and a form of security interest (a charge on land).

The payment clauses here tell you who pays the payments to whom. The grant clause indicates the creation of a security interest. So payment is from transferee to management company, but transferor and the management company each have the benefit of the charge.

Rotten drafting, I agree, but land law is stubbornly resistant to modernisation.


mondeoman

Original Poster:

11,430 posts

296 months

Sunday 5th November 2017
quotequote all
Thanks Breadvan, kind of aligns to what I though it meant

The bit I am struggling to get my head around is the "benefit" for the Transferor.

I cant see any benefit to the Transferor unless its around how by requiring the transferee to pay the rentcharge to the management company, the transferor has mitigiated any potential cost to themselves associated with overall site maintenance.

anonymous-user

84 months

Sunday 5th November 2017
quotequote all
Sometimes lazy lawyers use boilerplate and don't think through whether it means anything, so it might mean dick, but see below. If you are the paying party (transferee) you discharge your obligation by paying the management company. There may be some benefit for the transferor in having a charge on the property if, for example, the transferor has an agreement with the management company that some or all of the money paid by the transferee has to be paid over to the transferor.

mondeoman

Original Poster:

11,430 posts

296 months

Sunday 5th November 2017
quotequote all
Ta muchly, I'll go with your first sentence.

Having read through 3 formal documents associated with this, clusterfk doesn't even come close. Definition conflicts, contradictory clauses, date disconnects, ambiguity abounds.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend!

anonymous-user

84 months

Sunday 5th November 2017
quotequote all
Too many bad transaction lawyers take refuge in bad drafting. Good news for litigators like me, but not good news for clients.

mondeoman

Original Poster:

11,430 posts

296 months

Sunday 5th November 2017
quotequote all
Tell me about it - this could cost someone in excess of £300,000

anonymous-user

84 months

Sunday 5th November 2017
quotequote all
Please PM me if I can help further. I can recommend some very sensible and not absurdly expensive solicitors, although you may already have some.

mondeoman

Original Poster:

11,430 posts

296 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
quotequote all
Reading on a tad more, a thought arises. What counts more in contract law, the intent of a contract, or the actual content of a contract?

Without divulging details, if you understand what a contract was supposed to achieve, (the intent), but the content describes and delivers something else entirely, which takes precedence?

anonymous-user

84 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
quotequote all
I am off out to schmooze solicitors over fancy-ass booze (tarting for business in other words), so will reply later when at least half cut or tomorrow when hungover.

anonymous-user

84 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
quotequote all
Have some Lennie to keep you going -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investors_Compensati...

mondeoman

Original Poster:

11,430 posts

296 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
quotequote all
I get where thats coming from, but this doesn't fit.. Let me see if i can come up with a sensible similie.

In the meantime, enjoy your booze schmooze

anonymous-user

84 months

Thursday 9th November 2017
quotequote all
A contract must always be interpreted so as to give effect to the intention of the parties BUT in a written contract the primary evidence of the intention of the parties is the words that they used when making the contract. If the words are not clear, there are various rules of interpretation used to ascertain contractual intent. In most cases, evidence from the parties as to what they intended is not allowed (because of the potential for fibbing), but there are exceptions to that rule.

Where a contract fails to reflect the intention of the parties one or both can seek what is known as rectification, but that's a rare thing.

Where both parties proceed on a mutually mistaken basis as to what a contract means, and it would be unfair to revert to the true meaning, something called an estoppel by convention can arise, but that is rare too.

mondeoman

Original Poster:

11,430 posts

296 months

Thursday 9th November 2017
quotequote all
Thank you. So if the words and definitions are clear and unambiguous, but still don't reflect the intention, then what? Leave it to a judge and make as best a case as you can?

anonymous-user

84 months

Thursday 9th November 2017
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That sounds like a case for rectification. That can be an uphill struggle.

mondeoman

Original Poster:

11,430 posts

296 months

Thursday 9th November 2017
quotequote all
Hmm, but I don’t want it rectified, I want it nullified and reset to original state and then never gone near again. wink

Uphill indeed. Sodding greedy builders.