Dispute with builder and now owed many many pennies - help!
Discussion
Unfortunately we seem to have been scammed/let down by a builder in quite a big way and would like some advice please!
Its a little different in this case as its a prefab building he was constructing in his unit in NI, rather than on site in England.
We did all the due diligence, checked him out on companies house, went to his premises, met his family, saw some of his happy customers etc. We had a contract, and a payment plan agreed, and all seemed fine.
Payment plan was 70K in 4 x 25% payments, 25% deposit, 25% groundworks finished, 25% building finished in his unit, 25% all installed and signed off by building control.
We paid the 25% deposit, and he was due to start the work about 6 weeks later.
Sure enough 6 weeks later he started the building in his unit, and send lots of pics, however he was supposed to start the groundworks first, when I questioned this he blamed supplier issues for the groundworks materials and said they would be started in a few weeks, however as the building had progressed faster than the groundworks, could he have some more money to progress the building, so we agreed to send him another 8K (out of contract) to progress the building more.
Expecting to pay the next 25% - 8K once groundworks finished, as planned.
After another delay on the groundworks, we flew over to see him and he said he had spent the money we had given him on the build (to be fair, the building was well underway and I saw kitchens, stoves, custom hardwood doors and windows etc.) and he didn’t personally have the cash to fund my project to completion
The groundworks are ready to go, all suppliers are ready now and ready to fly his guys over, if we can send him another 30K he can get the groundworks finished and the building completed (he specifically said he would put his guys on the project from Monday morning absolutely flat out over xmas and it would be finished in no time now), and installed by mid Jan as planned.
There was no way we were giving him 30K out of the blue, so after much thought and deliberation, we agreed to make another 25% payment, again, out of contract, this was to enable him to finish the building (first thing Monday, all through xmas he said).
And then the first week in Jan, when he arrives to do the groundworks, pay the supplier of the groundworks materials directly (6K) and pay him the remaining 3.5K on the Friday he finishes to pay his guys. (Trying to mitigate risk here).
This would bring us up to a finished building, and finished groundworks, and 75% payment made, as per the contract, but we were paying in advance now, rather than in Lou.
We paid the 17.5K on the 15th December, and as he agreed he said the team would be back on the project first thing Monday, all over xmas! Im sure you can guess the rest, the building hasn’t been touched since, not a thing, the man that till this stage has been very chatty and sending me regular pictures, is almost uncontactable, ignores direct questions, and tries to flatter me with picking granite worktops and paint colours, rather than pics of the building updates
Then come first week of Jan, he asked for the next lump sum of 9.5K so he can come and do the groundworks, which isn’t what was agreed, so I say ill pay the supplier, you come and do them, he says this isn’t possible as he needs to pay for other bits and bobs, and his team want payment first.
At this point he holds the building as ransom, if you don’t pay me MORE money, I can’t finish the building and you won’t get anything, still wouldn’t give me a reason he won’t give me updates on the building state or why, won’t answer the phone etc.
Ive had enough, book a flight out to see him, he hides, despite the fact I saw him, next day, me and a few mates arrive with some tools and a lorry and re-possess the building, its now safely back in England, under lock and key.
He is now completely ignoring me, last correspondence I had with him was “speak to my solicitor”!
We only managed to re-possess about 10K’s worth of stuff, as half of the windows, stove, kitchen etc wasn’t there at the time.
We have had what we managed to re-posses officially valued, and it has a value of 8k with no labour, so about 13K total.
I have a solicitor writing him a letter setting out the above and our demands, but is there anything else I can be doing in the meantime?
Any way of finding out who his solicitor is?
Its quite a large, longstanding company, they currently have about 4 other large projects being built, its not a fly by night type affair, so the whole situation seems odd, I just assume he was using my money to pay his mortgage/finish other buildings for other customers, and ran out of money!
Am I able to re-posses other buildings from him, guess this would have to go through the courts and liquidators if the money isn’t forthcoming.
Thanks!
Its a little different in this case as its a prefab building he was constructing in his unit in NI, rather than on site in England.
We did all the due diligence, checked him out on companies house, went to his premises, met his family, saw some of his happy customers etc. We had a contract, and a payment plan agreed, and all seemed fine.
Payment plan was 70K in 4 x 25% payments, 25% deposit, 25% groundworks finished, 25% building finished in his unit, 25% all installed and signed off by building control.
We paid the 25% deposit, and he was due to start the work about 6 weeks later.
Sure enough 6 weeks later he started the building in his unit, and send lots of pics, however he was supposed to start the groundworks first, when I questioned this he blamed supplier issues for the groundworks materials and said they would be started in a few weeks, however as the building had progressed faster than the groundworks, could he have some more money to progress the building, so we agreed to send him another 8K (out of contract) to progress the building more.
Expecting to pay the next 25% - 8K once groundworks finished, as planned.
After another delay on the groundworks, we flew over to see him and he said he had spent the money we had given him on the build (to be fair, the building was well underway and I saw kitchens, stoves, custom hardwood doors and windows etc.) and he didn’t personally have the cash to fund my project to completion
The groundworks are ready to go, all suppliers are ready now and ready to fly his guys over, if we can send him another 30K he can get the groundworks finished and the building completed (he specifically said he would put his guys on the project from Monday morning absolutely flat out over xmas and it would be finished in no time now), and installed by mid Jan as planned.
There was no way we were giving him 30K out of the blue, so after much thought and deliberation, we agreed to make another 25% payment, again, out of contract, this was to enable him to finish the building (first thing Monday, all through xmas he said).
And then the first week in Jan, when he arrives to do the groundworks, pay the supplier of the groundworks materials directly (6K) and pay him the remaining 3.5K on the Friday he finishes to pay his guys. (Trying to mitigate risk here).
This would bring us up to a finished building, and finished groundworks, and 75% payment made, as per the contract, but we were paying in advance now, rather than in Lou.
We paid the 17.5K on the 15th December, and as he agreed he said the team would be back on the project first thing Monday, all over xmas! Im sure you can guess the rest, the building hasn’t been touched since, not a thing, the man that till this stage has been very chatty and sending me regular pictures, is almost uncontactable, ignores direct questions, and tries to flatter me with picking granite worktops and paint colours, rather than pics of the building updates
Then come first week of Jan, he asked for the next lump sum of 9.5K so he can come and do the groundworks, which isn’t what was agreed, so I say ill pay the supplier, you come and do them, he says this isn’t possible as he needs to pay for other bits and bobs, and his team want payment first.
At this point he holds the building as ransom, if you don’t pay me MORE money, I can’t finish the building and you won’t get anything, still wouldn’t give me a reason he won’t give me updates on the building state or why, won’t answer the phone etc.
Ive had enough, book a flight out to see him, he hides, despite the fact I saw him, next day, me and a few mates arrive with some tools and a lorry and re-possess the building, its now safely back in England, under lock and key.
He is now completely ignoring me, last correspondence I had with him was “speak to my solicitor”!
We only managed to re-possess about 10K’s worth of stuff, as half of the windows, stove, kitchen etc wasn’t there at the time.
We have had what we managed to re-posses officially valued, and it has a value of 8k with no labour, so about 13K total.
I have a solicitor writing him a letter setting out the above and our demands, but is there anything else I can be doing in the meantime?
Any way of finding out who his solicitor is?
Its quite a large, longstanding company, they currently have about 4 other large projects being built, its not a fly by night type affair, so the whole situation seems odd, I just assume he was using my money to pay his mortgage/finish other buildings for other customers, and ran out of money!
Am I able to re-posses other buildings from him, guess this would have to go through the courts and liquidators if the money isn’t forthcoming.
- **TLDR*****
Thanks!
I feel your pain - similar happened to me last year, albeit for much less. Did all of my due diligence etc, but he got 3 CCJs after he started our job, and the references were fake and previous work I'd seen were only jobs he had been a site foreman on, rather than lead builder.
He too is hiding behind a Ltd company which is being liquidated, but our insurers/legal cover people are going after him personally for the mismanagement of money we paid to his company for materials that were never supplied. We've written off the labour cost as that is likely to be contested, but he invoiced for materials, aggregates, skip hire, scaffolding etc that was never supplied.
I'm following this thread to see how others have dealt with rogue tradesmen.
He too is hiding behind a Ltd company which is being liquidated, but our insurers/legal cover people are going after him personally for the mismanagement of money we paid to his company for materials that were never supplied. We've written off the labour cost as that is likely to be contested, but he invoiced for materials, aggregates, skip hire, scaffolding etc that was never supplied.
I'm following this thread to see how others have dealt with rogue tradesmen.
S11Steve said:
I feel your pain - similar happened to me last year, albeit for much less. Did all of my due diligence etc, but he got 3 CCJs after he started our job, and the references were fake and previous work I'd seen were only jobs he had been a site foreman on, rather than lead builder.
He too is hiding behind a Ltd company which is being liquidated, but our insurers/legal cover people are going after him personally for the mismanagement of money we paid to his company for materials that were never supplied. We've written off the labour cost as that is likely to be contested, but he invoiced for materials, aggregates, skip hire, scaffolding etc that was never supplied.
I'm following this thread to see how others have dealt with rogue tradesmen.
Sorry to hear that Steve, best of luck to you!He too is hiding behind a Ltd company which is being liquidated, but our insurers/legal cover people are going after him personally for the mismanagement of money we paid to his company for materials that were never supplied. We've written off the labour cost as that is likely to be contested, but he invoiced for materials, aggregates, skip hire, scaffolding etc that was never supplied.
I'm following this thread to see how others have dealt with rogue tradesmen.
Zetec-S said:
Trouble is I presume these buildings have been paid/part paid for by other customers?
Probably yes, although he was on about setting himself up a showroom (in his many acres and laked garden) with 3/4 buildings and at least one of them was being built for that he said.Alucidnation said:
Sounds like s
t situation OP, but you did ignore the advice you were given in your initial thread about it.
Good luck.
Forgot all about that thread to be honest, however that was about paying a deposit and the risks involved in paying it and waiting 6-8 weeks before he starts. t situation OP, but you did ignore the advice you were given in your initial thread about it.Good luck.
I paid the deposit, and 6-8 weeks later he started as planned, so my question on that last thread has no bearing to this issue really
I spent today taking legal advice from a large national law firm. Their general advice was did the Ltd company builder's have the monies to cover the debt, and was in worth the stress, and throwing good money after bad, in going after the builder.Together with apart from the legal fees, there will also be costs for both building and quantity surveyors reports. Good possibility I will simply count my losses and walk away from a legal fight.
What an awful situation to be in.
Not that this will help you but I sympathise with your problem as a similar story happened to my parents when i was a teenager-the builder kept asking for money and my parents being desperate to get into the house paid him £30k, only to find out that he had buggered off to Spain with the money and not paid any of the tradesmen! My parents had to find another £30k and a further £40k to finish the job as the builder's quality of work was shocking.
That experience stayed with me to this day and we recently had an extension built-I would not pay for anything upfront and only paid once I had seen the work with my Architect who is project managing the job-yes I could have managed the job myself but I wanted an expert to be involved and further to this, we are spending a small fortune on it. Interestingly, when we got our quotes in from Builders 3 out of the 5 requested a upfront (hefty) deposit and the one we went with was the only one that said dont ever pay upfront and get a fixed price for the work. Again I know this isn't constructive to you situation just sharing my experience.
fingers crossed you can get a good outcome-good luck.
Not that this will help you but I sympathise with your problem as a similar story happened to my parents when i was a teenager-the builder kept asking for money and my parents being desperate to get into the house paid him £30k, only to find out that he had buggered off to Spain with the money and not paid any of the tradesmen! My parents had to find another £30k and a further £40k to finish the job as the builder's quality of work was shocking.
That experience stayed with me to this day and we recently had an extension built-I would not pay for anything upfront and only paid once I had seen the work with my Architect who is project managing the job-yes I could have managed the job myself but I wanted an expert to be involved and further to this, we are spending a small fortune on it. Interestingly, when we got our quotes in from Builders 3 out of the 5 requested a upfront (hefty) deposit and the one we went with was the only one that said dont ever pay upfront and get a fixed price for the work. Again I know this isn't constructive to you situation just sharing my experience.
fingers crossed you can get a good outcome-good luck.
Interested to know how you physically repossess a building? Presumably it's in kit form but did the guy and his employees just stand there whilst you packed it all up which must have taken sometime. They didn't call the Police on you? I'm guessing here but I suspect they might have tried to stop you.
If you've been bold enough to go get your building what's to stop you returning for another lorry load of anything else he owes you. Wait a couple of weeks allowing him to restock maybe? I suspect there are NI members who'd be save you a journey and have a looksee to see what's there.
If you've been bold enough to go get your building what's to stop you returning for another lorry load of anything else he owes you. Wait a couple of weeks allowing him to restock maybe? I suspect there are NI members who'd be save you a journey and have a looksee to see what's there.
Odhran said:
Hi, curious to know - where exactly in NI are this firm based? Pm if you like.
Ill Pm youelanfan said:
Interested to know how you physically repossess a building? Presumably it's in kit form but did the guy and his employees just stand there whilst you packed it all up which must have taken sometime. They didn't call the Police on you? I'm guessing here but I suspect they might have tried to stop you.
If you've been bold enough to go get your building what's to stop you returning for another lorry load of anything else he owes you. Wait a couple of weeks allowing him to restock maybe? I suspect there are NI members who'd be save you a journey and have a looksee to see what's there.
Luckily we had the sense, during the negotiations of the last payment to talk to my solicitor and work out how we could protect ourselves, our main concern was even till the very last moment, the day it was due to be shipped, its all in his premises and we have noting to show for it. He said about adding a clause to the contract saying we had full title of the building and all of its fixtures and fittings and could enter their premises at any time to take possession, he agreed and added this to the contract. If you've been bold enough to go get your building what's to stop you returning for another lorry load of anything else he owes you. Wait a couple of weeks allowing him to restock maybe? I suspect there are NI members who'd be save you a journey and have a looksee to see what's there.
I dont think we, or him was expecting this to happen, so when we rocked up with some guys and a lorry he was a bit shocked to say the least and refused to come and talk to us/see us. Some of his guys were just working away on other projects and hid some stuff they didn't want us taking. We called the police before arriving to let them know what we were doing, incase there were any issues.
IANAS but what rights do you have under the contract in this situation, did they include seizure of items he requires to complete the contract or do you have to terminate before you can do that?
Did your solicitor tell you you could seize items?
If these rights are not set out in the contract he could take action against you for preventing him from completing the contract and that could be very expensive.
Did your solicitor tell you you could seize items?
If these rights are not set out in the contract he could take action against you for preventing him from completing the contract and that could be very expensive.
dmsims said:
Just read through this.Plenty of advice not to proceed on those terms but all ignored.
GreatGranny said:
dmsims said:
Just read through this.Plenty of advice not to proceed on those terms but all ignored.
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