Advice needed - small claims court process
Discussion
I would appreciate some advice around a situation I find myself in. I will give the background but will omit specifics since this is ongoing.
I took my car to a paint repair company for some minor work on the front driver side wing. Upon collecting my car I noticed the driver side headlight was cracked, with multiple 2" vertical cracks running almost the entire width of the headlight. I raised this to the company at time of collection. Upon getting home I noticed 2 very small cracks in the passenger side headlight at the narrowest width of the lense.
I am 100% adamant that they were not damaged before I took the car to them. The manager came to quote on the work and viewed the car about 10 days prior. He claims he wouldn't have spotted a cracked headlight at that time as was focused on the paint blemish which was no more than 12"-18" away from the headlight. I asked the guy who I gave my keys to on the day, to look around the car and point out any imperfections as this paint job would take it back to top condition. He agreed it was very tidy. I sadly fell short of taking any photos or videos at the time which of course I now regret. Note the manager who quoted on the job and viewed the car was on holiday when the work was done. A meeting was arranged for us upon his return.
I believe that the car was heated too much in the "oven" when curing the paint which had lead to the lenses cracking. The circumstances around the heating and cooling I am not aware of.
I met with them a week after the work was done and in essence they claim it was already cracked on receipt, that a trusted long term employee signed a declaration slip saying it was already cracked. Essentially it is my word versus his and the company have been extremely defensive. The replacement lights are about 7x the value of the paint job to supply and fit. I have not paid them for the work and do not plan to until I have resolved the cost of the lights. I have been advised that the driver side light would be an MOT fail. I need to stress I am happy with the paintwork itself.
I think if anyone were to look at the facts and physical evidence, plus some other comments made by the manager when giving his side of the story, which I have omitted here, which in my opinion lead to questioning the competency and processes they have in place , the conclusion would be simple and complete.
Has anyone had a similar situation happen to them and that they took to the small claims court? What was asked and what was the outcome?
Thanks for your advice
I took my car to a paint repair company for some minor work on the front driver side wing. Upon collecting my car I noticed the driver side headlight was cracked, with multiple 2" vertical cracks running almost the entire width of the headlight. I raised this to the company at time of collection. Upon getting home I noticed 2 very small cracks in the passenger side headlight at the narrowest width of the lense.
I am 100% adamant that they were not damaged before I took the car to them. The manager came to quote on the work and viewed the car about 10 days prior. He claims he wouldn't have spotted a cracked headlight at that time as was focused on the paint blemish which was no more than 12"-18" away from the headlight. I asked the guy who I gave my keys to on the day, to look around the car and point out any imperfections as this paint job would take it back to top condition. He agreed it was very tidy. I sadly fell short of taking any photos or videos at the time which of course I now regret. Note the manager who quoted on the job and viewed the car was on holiday when the work was done. A meeting was arranged for us upon his return.
I believe that the car was heated too much in the "oven" when curing the paint which had lead to the lenses cracking. The circumstances around the heating and cooling I am not aware of.
I met with them a week after the work was done and in essence they claim it was already cracked on receipt, that a trusted long term employee signed a declaration slip saying it was already cracked. Essentially it is my word versus his and the company have been extremely defensive. The replacement lights are about 7x the value of the paint job to supply and fit. I have not paid them for the work and do not plan to until I have resolved the cost of the lights. I have been advised that the driver side light would be an MOT fail. I need to stress I am happy with the paintwork itself.
I think if anyone were to look at the facts and physical evidence, plus some other comments made by the manager when giving his side of the story, which I have omitted here, which in my opinion lead to questioning the competency and processes they have in place , the conclusion would be simple and complete.
Has anyone had a similar situation happen to them and that they took to the small claims court? What was asked and what was the outcome?
Thanks for your advice
Edited by dmm1983 on Saturday 27th January 14:09
Any photographs at all, even going back a few months? Can you provide evidence of what happens to lights when they are over-baked?
Basically, if you can:
- prove what has happened to other people's lights - ie, overcooking results in the same cracking as yours
- offer some evidence that your lights were OK at some point previously because you have an older phot, or you can state with confidence when you last washed your car and inspected the lights
- then a small claim will be considered 'on the balance of probabilities'.
You might not need to have immediate before and after photos in order to have a good prospect of a successful claim, as long as there is other evidence which you can provide.
After all, it's a civil claim rather than criminal so 'forensic' levels of evidence aren't required.
ie, can you find other owners with the same lights who have had a respray without their lights cracking?
and, can you find owners of the same lights who which have cracked due to over baking?
Basically, if you can:
- prove what has happened to other people's lights - ie, overcooking results in the same cracking as yours
- offer some evidence that your lights were OK at some point previously because you have an older phot, or you can state with confidence when you last washed your car and inspected the lights
- then a small claim will be considered 'on the balance of probabilities'.
You might not need to have immediate before and after photos in order to have a good prospect of a successful claim, as long as there is other evidence which you can provide.
After all, it's a civil claim rather than criminal so 'forensic' levels of evidence aren't required.
ie, can you find other owners with the same lights who have had a respray without their lights cracking?
and, can you find owners of the same lights who which have cracked due to over baking?
Edited by ReverendCounter on Saturday 27th January 16:33
dmm1983 said:
I have not paid them for the work and do not plan to until I have resolved the cost of the lights. I have been advised that the driver side light would be an MOT fail. I need to stress I am happy with the paintwork itself.
I'd be prepared for a claim heading your way for non-payment. If I was the garage, I'd be putting in the claim you're making up stories about lights just to get some free paintwork done.After all, they can prove they have done some paint, you can't prove they broke your lights.
Not saying who is in the wrong, but in my experience of Small Claims, the judges like simple & straightforward facts and will base their decision on that (as well as the law).
Put it like this - 2 people you have never met ask you to solve a dispute. Person A says he has done work he hasn't been paid for - Person B agrees this is true. Person B then says I'm not paying because you broke something but I can't prove it. Person A disputes this and says Person B is making it up to avoid paying. Without knowing either person, what would you do?
What car is this where the headlights are 7 x the cost of a paint repair? A minor paint job can be say £400 - so your lights are £2800???
I can't see glass cracking in an oven or you'd lose all your windscreens and side glass too. Could it have have infrared heaters placed too close? Still think it unlikely. Is there any surface abrasion on the lenses? Could they have rolled your car and bumped into something?
Think you're on a loser unless you throw the dice and they crumble. Can't see them crumbling on a multi thousand claim though.
I can't see glass cracking in an oven or you'd lose all your windscreens and side glass too. Could it have have infrared heaters placed too close? Still think it unlikely. Is there any surface abrasion on the lenses? Could they have rolled your car and bumped into something?
Think you're on a loser unless you throw the dice and they crumble. Can't see them crumbling on a multi thousand claim though.
ReverendCounter said:
jeff666 said:
Never once had a head light or any thing else crack due to heat
Have you ever dramatically overcooked though? Do you know at what temp a light will crack?Maybe someone at the garage genuinely made a simple mistake.
After painting you come out the booth and switch to bake, you leave the temp and baking time the same for every job.
Most lights are plastic now any way, we have even left aerosols and fire extinguishers in the cars with no problems at all.
elanfan said:
What car is this where the headlights are 7 x the cost of a paint repair? A minor paint job can be say £400 - so your lights are £2800???
I can't see glass cracking in an oven or you'd lose all your windscreens and side glass too. Could it have have infrared heaters placed too close? Still think it unlikely. Is there any surface abrasion on the lenses? Could they have rolled your car and bumped into something?
Think you're on a loser unless you throw the dice and they crumble. Can't see them crumbling on a multi thousand claim though.
I think from memory my old 996 c4s head lamps where about £1500.00 each,I can't see glass cracking in an oven or you'd lose all your windscreens and side glass too. Could it have have infrared heaters placed too close? Still think it unlikely. Is there any surface abrasion on the lenses? Could they have rolled your car and bumped into something?
Think you're on a loser unless you throw the dice and they crumble. Can't see them crumbling on a multi thousand claim though.
All singing all dancing things with a separate box full of head lamp gas or snake oil lol.
TooMany2cvs said:
Are they really going to put the whole car in an oven for one wing? Or just use heatlamps (assuming the wing was painted on the car and blended)
Yes,Controlled environment, plus you don't paint out side the booth in a workshop with no extraction.
We do at times prime very small areas out side the booth and lamp them though, but not base and clear.
Car is an S2000. Lights are £700 each. Paint job was ~£200. Car washed approx 2 weeks before work and quick detailed before went in for work at request of body shop. Point noted re paying for work done.
Damage to lights entirely inconsistent with impact damage. Remember both lights have cracking. I have dashcam footage showing car was put in an oven....
I am 100% positive lights were in perfect condition before it went in. I invited an inspection of the car before I left it with them and no defects noted, though wasn't documented.
Damage to lights entirely inconsistent with impact damage. Remember both lights have cracking. I have dashcam footage showing car was put in an oven....
I am 100% positive lights were in perfect condition before it went in. I invited an inspection of the car before I left it with them and no defects noted, though wasn't documented.
|https://thumbsnap.com/4pr5hPJq[/url]The damage is very peculiar. You might want to investigate the viability of a negligence claim based on res ipsa loquitur, "the thing speaks for itself". The vehicle was under the control of the shop, the damage appears to have had a non-natural cause, and there is no evidence of how the damage occurred. If a court accepts these three things, the burden of proof would shift onto the shop.
Quite baffling,
They are plastic headlamp covers, I really doubt putting the car thru the oven would have done this, maybe and only maybe if their were already some hairline cracks in them the heat brought it out with expansion?
They are not accidental scratches from a block or DA, plus both sides have gone in the same place.
If you look at it from the body shops point of view if this was a regular occurrence I am sure they would of heard about seen it before.
They are plastic headlamp covers, I really doubt putting the car thru the oven would have done this, maybe and only maybe if their were already some hairline cracks in them the heat brought it out with expansion?
They are not accidental scratches from a block or DA, plus both sides have gone in the same place.
If you look at it from the body shops point of view if this was a regular occurrence I am sure they would of heard about seen it before.
Remember the other headlight also has a couple of cracks in the corner, similar to those in the corner of the one above. So this leads me to believe the damage is due to an "environmental" effect.
I am adamant they weren't there when I dropped the car off. I have received feedback from body shops saying they have not seen or heard of this happening in the x years they have been in business. I accept that. But as someone put above, the damage is peculiar. The damage is not consistent with impact. Both lights are damaged. The light with the most damage is the one 12-18" away from the paint blemish I sought to correct. You can see the the worst cracking seems to be where the wing meets the front bumper, right around that line.
The body shop have a written statement from the gentleman who masked the light that it was already cracked. The gentleman who I gave my keys to and walked around the car and agreed it was in top condition masked up the wing. I find it unusual that I wasn't contacted about the cracks when the gentleman I gave my keys to knew how fussy I was about the car, therefore I can only assume the two didn't speak, but given the car is in otherwise outstanding condition, I find this very strange. The manager claims he wouldn't have noticed a cracked light when he came to quote on the car claiming "he was focused on the blemish" despite talking about having to feather the paint across the wing and that the light is 12-18" away. I would imagine someone who does paintwork for a living could be expected to have an attention to detail. The car has been garaged and kept under cover for the last 7 years. There have been no change of storage conditions.
It's my word versus their employee. I have maintained the car with the same Honda dealer for many years who I'm sure would attest as to the condition of the car and my attitude around maintenance. Why would I invite an inspection of my car prior to the work if I the lights were already broken? I am not claiming the damage was deliberate, nor am I trying to claim a free paint job. On the contrary I was concerned they would attempt to offer paintwork for free when I would foot the bill for a far bigger cost. As it transpires that offer did not come.
Sorry for the rant, but I would greatly appreciate people's opinions on the balance of the statement and evidence I have provided.
I am adamant they weren't there when I dropped the car off. I have received feedback from body shops saying they have not seen or heard of this happening in the x years they have been in business. I accept that. But as someone put above, the damage is peculiar. The damage is not consistent with impact. Both lights are damaged. The light with the most damage is the one 12-18" away from the paint blemish I sought to correct. You can see the the worst cracking seems to be where the wing meets the front bumper, right around that line.
The body shop have a written statement from the gentleman who masked the light that it was already cracked. The gentleman who I gave my keys to and walked around the car and agreed it was in top condition masked up the wing. I find it unusual that I wasn't contacted about the cracks when the gentleman I gave my keys to knew how fussy I was about the car, therefore I can only assume the two didn't speak, but given the car is in otherwise outstanding condition, I find this very strange. The manager claims he wouldn't have noticed a cracked light when he came to quote on the car claiming "he was focused on the blemish" despite talking about having to feather the paint across the wing and that the light is 12-18" away. I would imagine someone who does paintwork for a living could be expected to have an attention to detail. The car has been garaged and kept under cover for the last 7 years. There have been no change of storage conditions.
It's my word versus their employee. I have maintained the car with the same Honda dealer for many years who I'm sure would attest as to the condition of the car and my attitude around maintenance. Why would I invite an inspection of my car prior to the work if I the lights were already broken? I am not claiming the damage was deliberate, nor am I trying to claim a free paint job. On the contrary I was concerned they would attempt to offer paintwork for free when I would foot the bill for a far bigger cost. As it transpires that offer did not come.
Sorry for the rant, but I would greatly appreciate people's opinions on the balance of the statement and evidence I have provided.
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