Mobile Phones & the law
Discussion
I was just thinking today after a conversation with a colleague about what the law actually means and just wanted to check my understanding of it.
I drive for a living, spending numerous hours per week on the road but I cannot get my head around what the law actually means when it states "hand held" and whether you can actually use a phone thats in a cradle.
I have a company phone, linked to bluetooth, and a personal phone which if I need to use while driving I always have either a pair of wireless or wired headphones connected. The only time I'm likely to get in hot water over this is answering a call on the personal phone or ending the call. The work phone is tucked in the armrest (if i need to make a call I can do so via the stereo) and my own phone is in a mounted cradle on the dash.
Ive done some digging:
The Law says...
You must stay in full control of your vehicle at all times. The police can stop you if they think you’re not in control because you’re distracted and you can be prosecuted.
The law still applies to you if you’re:
So I done some more digging.
The CPS says...
Regulation 110 (6)(a) states that a mobile phone or device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call, or performing any other interactive communication function.
The term "mobile phone" will cover cell-phones and smart phones.
A phone or device will be in use where it is making or receiving a call, or performing any other interactive communication function whether with another person or not.
The particular use to which the mobile phone must be put is not defined as an element of the offence. The prosecution must merely prove that the phone or the other device was hand held by the person at some point during its use at a time when the person was driving a vehicle on a road.
It therefore follows that the phone / device does not need to be seized before a prosecution can be brought.
Please - worth mentioning - this debate isn't about whether its right or wrong to use a phone. My attention is 100% on the road, I don't send messages or what not on the road - that can wait till I get home. However if I am stuck in traffic and someone calls to ask where I am, I'd like to be able to answer the call quickly. Its arguably more of a distraction to recode the stereo to my own phone, and call back than it is to shove an earpiece in my ear and press one button on the phone to answer. I'm also not looking for someone to confirm whether you could technically sit on facebook in lane 3 of the M11. I just don't want to get a hefty fine and points for something that I'm misreading just for answering a call.
This would all be irrelevant had Vauxhall let you code 2 bluetooth devices to the van at one time - ahem yes you Vauxhall/Renault or whoever make the stereos...
Any thoughts?
I drive for a living, spending numerous hours per week on the road but I cannot get my head around what the law actually means when it states "hand held" and whether you can actually use a phone thats in a cradle.
I have a company phone, linked to bluetooth, and a personal phone which if I need to use while driving I always have either a pair of wireless or wired headphones connected. The only time I'm likely to get in hot water over this is answering a call on the personal phone or ending the call. The work phone is tucked in the armrest (if i need to make a call I can do so via the stereo) and my own phone is in a mounted cradle on the dash.
Ive done some digging:
The Law says...
- ************************************************************************************
- a bluetooth headset
- voice command
- a dashboard holder or mat
- a windscreen mount
- a built-in sat nav
You must stay in full control of your vehicle at all times. The police can stop you if they think you’re not in control because you’re distracted and you can be prosecuted.
The law still applies to you if you’re:
- stopped at traffic lights
- queuing in traffic
- supervising a learner driver
- ************************************************************************************
So I done some more digging.
The CPS says...
- ************************************************************************************
Regulation 110 (6)(a) states that a mobile phone or device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call, or performing any other interactive communication function.
The term "mobile phone" will cover cell-phones and smart phones.
- Hand-held device
- Use
A phone or device will be in use where it is making or receiving a call, or performing any other interactive communication function whether with another person or not.
The particular use to which the mobile phone must be put is not defined as an element of the offence. The prosecution must merely prove that the phone or the other device was hand held by the person at some point during its use at a time when the person was driving a vehicle on a road.
It therefore follows that the phone / device does not need to be seized before a prosecution can be brought.
- ************************************************************************************
Please - worth mentioning - this debate isn't about whether its right or wrong to use a phone. My attention is 100% on the road, I don't send messages or what not on the road - that can wait till I get home. However if I am stuck in traffic and someone calls to ask where I am, I'd like to be able to answer the call quickly. Its arguably more of a distraction to recode the stereo to my own phone, and call back than it is to shove an earpiece in my ear and press one button on the phone to answer. I'm also not looking for someone to confirm whether you could technically sit on facebook in lane 3 of the M11. I just don't want to get a hefty fine and points for something that I'm misreading just for answering a call.
This would all be irrelevant had Vauxhall let you code 2 bluetooth devices to the van at one time - ahem yes you Vauxhall/Renault or whoever make the stereos...
Any thoughts?
nipsips said:
....but I cannot get my head around what the law actually means when it states "hand held" and whether you can actually use a phone thats in a cradle.
Really?nipsips said:
The Law says...
It’s illegal to hold a phone or sat nav while driving or riding a motorcycle. You must have hands-free access, such as:
...
Seems fairly clear, but that's not actual law.It’s illegal to hold a phone or sat nav while driving or riding a motorcycle. You must have hands-free access, such as:
...
- a dashboard holder or mat
- a windscreen mount
nipsips said:
Regulation 110 (6)(a) states that a mobile phone or device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call, or performing any other interactive communication function.
Again, seems really clear. And that IS actual law...Here it is:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2695/regul...
nipsips said:
And this is what I can't get my head around. Providing the device is put in a cradle before the engine is started, technically it no longer becomes handheld at any point in the course of making a call/sending a text etc etc.
Correct.nipsips said:
Surely this opens up a loophole for people to do whatever they want on their phones, providing it isn't hand held. I understand that you can be prosecuted for careless driving, if your driving falls foul of the required standard as a result of this.
Yup. You can't get a 6pt mobile phone ticket, but you can still get nicked if you're driving carelessly because you're fiddling with it. Or your car stereo. Or a newspaper. Or...nipsips said:
But what I don't want to do is answer a call in traffic
Don't, then.nipsips said:
However if I am stuck in traffic and someone calls to ask where I am, I'd like to be able to answer the call quickly. Its arguably more of a distraction to recode the stereo to my own phone
So pair it before you set off, then just press the button on the head unit or steering wheel...?nipsips said:
and call back than it is to shove an earpiece in my ear and press one button on the phone to answer.
So put the bluetooth earpiece in your ear before you drive off, let alone before the phone rings, and just press the button on it.Or - hey, radical suggestion - let the call go to voicemail.
Job jobbed. Sometimes, the easy answer is the best one.
nipsips said:
This would all be irrelevant had Vauxhall let you code 2 bluetooth devices to the van at one time - ahem yes you Vauxhall/Renault or whoever make the stereos...
Did somebody deliver your new phone through the van window at 70mph on the m'way, then?To use ANY type of phone whilst driving, hands free or hand held, in a cradle or stuck in your visor, is foolish in the extreme. I won't elaborate or give examples here as all motorists must know by now that it is an extreme distraction.
On my patch recently a woman who killed a cyclist while using a hands free phone was convicted because the jury, and the judge, decided that, although 'legal, she was distracted by using a phone whilst driving.
Some will defend this crazy habit and will go to some lengths to explain that they can text and drive simultaneously.
The quicker that a severe punishment, a ban for a first offence for example, is legislated, maybe this modern motoring menace will be as anti-social as drink driving.
On my patch recently a woman who killed a cyclist while using a hands free phone was convicted because the jury, and the judge, decided that, although 'legal, she was distracted by using a phone whilst driving.
Some will defend this crazy habit and will go to some lengths to explain that they can text and drive simultaneously.
The quicker that a severe punishment, a ban for a first offence for example, is legislated, maybe this modern motoring menace will be as anti-social as drink driving.
Edited by nonsequitur on Wednesday 31st January 09:29
Thank you.
Just wanted to check whether it was technically right or I was misreading it.
Im a response engineer, so have to have my work phone at all times connected to bluetooth on the vehicle, so I can't have my personal phone connected at the same time. If someone calls my personal phone, then I could connect it to the van, but would involve more drama than shoving an earpiece in and pressing pick up.
Just wanted to check whether it was technically right or I was misreading it.
Im a response engineer, so have to have my work phone at all times connected to bluetooth on the vehicle, so I can't have my personal phone connected at the same time. If someone calls my personal phone, then I could connect it to the van, but would involve more drama than shoving an earpiece in and pressing pick up.
TooMany2cvs said:
Can't the missus call your work phone, if she needs to get hold of you during work hours?
Company policy bans any use of the work phone for personal use. No idea why it has call waiting and what not on it. May be an idea - I'd rather get it in the neck from the boss than get in hot water with the police etc.TooMany2cvs said:
You aren't ringing her. You're answering a call.
Or let it go to voicemail and ring her back when you're not driving.
Have you ever ignored an angry Mrs when you promised you'd be home at x time and you've been asked "can you just"... Or let it go to voicemail and ring her back when you're not driving.
I think the thing I couldn't get my head around - is technically you could sit there on facebook and scroll through god knows what as long as the device isn't hand held. We all know that isnt safe and is frankly stupid.
My next vehicle is having Apple CarPlay I'm led to believe, so I can have the phone connected via that and bluetooth to the work phone. Problem solved.
Just wanted some clarification ideally. Thanks for your help?
nipsips said:
And this is what I can't get my head around. Providing the device is put in a cradle before the engine is started, technically it no longer becomes handheld at any point in the course of making a call/sending a text etc etc. Surely this opens up a loophole for people to do whatever they want on their phones, providing it isn't hand held. I understand that you can be prosecuted for careless driving, if your driving falls foul of the required standard as a result of this. But what I don't want to do is answer a call in traffic, or at other times if its opening me up to a conviction.
Please - worth mentioning - this debate isn't about whether its right or wrong to use a phone. My attention is 100% on the road, I don't send messages or what not on the road - that can wait till I get home. However if I am stuck in traffic and someone calls to ask where I am, I'd like to be able to answer the call quickly. Its arguably more of a distraction to recode the stereo to my own phone, and call back than it is to shove an earpiece in my ear and press one button on the phone to answer. I'm also not looking for someone to confirm whether you could technically sit on facebook in lane 3 of the M11. I just don't want to get a hefty fine and points for something that I'm misreading just for answering a call.
This would all be irrelevant had Vauxhall let you code 2 bluetooth devices to the van at one time - ahem yes you Vauxhall/Renault or whoever make the stereos...
Any thoughts?
The law is poorly worded, even for a law written by MPs.Please - worth mentioning - this debate isn't about whether its right or wrong to use a phone. My attention is 100% on the road, I don't send messages or what not on the road - that can wait till I get home. However if I am stuck in traffic and someone calls to ask where I am, I'd like to be able to answer the call quickly. Its arguably more of a distraction to recode the stereo to my own phone, and call back than it is to shove an earpiece in my ear and press one button on the phone to answer. I'm also not looking for someone to confirm whether you could technically sit on facebook in lane 3 of the M11. I just don't want to get a hefty fine and points for something that I'm misreading just for answering a call.
This would all be irrelevant had Vauxhall let you code 2 bluetooth devices to the van at one time - ahem yes you Vauxhall/Renault or whoever make the stereos...
Any thoughts?
Driving: Simply put, you are driving from the moment you start your journey until you reach your destination. If you stop to buy flowers, to sit on a wall, or just pull over to the side and switch off your engine, you are still driving. You can see, therefore, that despite being stationary in traffic, you are still driving.
Hand Held: The definition of this is still up for grabs to a certain extent but if you place the phone in a position before you start your journey you cannot pick it up for any reason until you have stopped driving (see above). Whether hand-held requires support of the weight is unknown to my knowledge.
Touching the phone: You can touch the phone while you are driving without committing this offence, although you can commit others.
To answer your question (I think): You can answer the phone when stationary in traffic without committing this offence. It goes the same for waiting at a set of lights for instance. That's as long as you do not hold the phone.
Handing a phone to someone else to answer is an offence under this legislation.
With regards the second phone. You can buy a cheap bluetooth device that lets you answer a single phone. You can clip the device to a lapel, shirt, etc. These can be voice actuated or press a button type. You can place the phone most places about your person and it will function. I use one. The quality isn't class of the field but all I tend not to hold long conversations. I just tell people I will call them back later.
Some forces will report drivers if they pull off the carriageway and into a layby to use the phone, ie hand-held. This was patently not what the legislators wanted but there you go.
A phone is still a phone even if you are using it as a satnav.
Derek Smith said:
The law is poorly worded, even for a law written by MPs.
Driving: Simply put, you are driving from the moment you start your journey until you reach your destination. If you stop to buy flowers, to sit on a wall, or just pull over to the side and switch off your engine, you are still driving. You can see, therefore, that despite being stationary in traffic, you are still driving.
Hand Held: The definition of this is still up for grabs to a certain extent but if you place the phone in a position before you start your journey you cannot pick it up for any reason until you have stopped driving (see above). Whether hand-held requires support of the weight is unknown to my knowledge.
Touching the phone: You can touch the phone while you are driving without committing this offence, although you can commit others.
To answer your question (I think): You can answer the phone when stationary in traffic without committing this offence. It goes the same for waiting at a set of lights for instance. That's as long as you do not hold the phone.
Handing a phone to someone else to answer is an offence under this legislation.
With regards the second phone. You can buy a cheap bluetooth device that lets you answer a single phone. You can clip the device to a lapel, shirt, etc. These can be voice actuated or press a button type. You can place the phone most places about your person and it will function. I use one. The quality isn't class of the field but all I tend not to hold long conversations. I just tell people I will call them back later.
Some forces will report drivers if they pull off the carriageway and into a layby to use the phone, ie hand-held. This was patently not what the legislators wanted but there you go.
A phone is still a phone even if you are using it as a satnav.
Today Matthew I shall mostly be writing codswallopDriving: Simply put, you are driving from the moment you start your journey until you reach your destination. If you stop to buy flowers, to sit on a wall, or just pull over to the side and switch off your engine, you are still driving. You can see, therefore, that despite being stationary in traffic, you are still driving.
Hand Held: The definition of this is still up for grabs to a certain extent but if you place the phone in a position before you start your journey you cannot pick it up for any reason until you have stopped driving (see above). Whether hand-held requires support of the weight is unknown to my knowledge.
Touching the phone: You can touch the phone while you are driving without committing this offence, although you can commit others.
To answer your question (I think): You can answer the phone when stationary in traffic without committing this offence. It goes the same for waiting at a set of lights for instance. That's as long as you do not hold the phone.
Handing a phone to someone else to answer is an offence under this legislation.
With regards the second phone. You can buy a cheap bluetooth device that lets you answer a single phone. You can clip the device to a lapel, shirt, etc. These can be voice actuated or press a button type. You can place the phone most places about your person and it will function. I use one. The quality isn't class of the field but all I tend not to hold long conversations. I just tell people I will call them back later.
Some forces will report drivers if they pull off the carriageway and into a layby to use the phone, ie hand-held. This was patently not what the legislators wanted but there you go.
A phone is still a phone even if you are using it as a satnav.
hutchst said:
if the regulators took a stand on separating a phone contract from a sim/service contract, then we could all have the option to use dual sim handsets, then our work and our personal phones would both be connected to the vehicle's built-in hands free system.
You're so going to have to explain that one to me...Nobody says you HAVE to tie buying your phone on tick to how you pay for your network access. Lots of people don't. You can buy phones outright, SIM-free. You can buy dial-SIM phones. You can buy dial-SIM phones outright, SIM-free, for less than £50. Yes, Android smart ones. <waits for cry of pain because it's not latest, greatest blingy fashion statement>
But why on earth would any employer who provides a phone so that you can be in contact for work purposes while working say "Yeh, no problem, you can stick your personal SIM in our phone"?
TooMany2cvs said:
Biker 1 said:
And as for using ear pieces: DON'T! How can you possibly hear car horns, sirens etc??
Umm, just as easily as without. They really don't blank absolutely everything out from even just that one ear, y'know.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff