civilian camera operators and the law
Discussion
Trying to find info on this as i know it was challenged in court but can't find the outcome, in the case of a mobile speed camera van does there need to be a police constable present to witness the offence ? got a nip for 36 in a 30mph limit from a parked up mobile van and the police have admitted there was a civilian "camera technician" operating the camera and not a police constable, what is the law surrounding these tickets now please? Is there any chance of me contesting it and winning or should i just take the course and pay the money?
thanks
thanks
RizzoTheRat said:
Surely if the equipment is calibrated/certified correctly there's no need for police at all. It's not the motorist vs the word of the camera operator, it's the motorist vs the evidence collected, which should be a laser/radar speed and a photo of the car.
there is separate legislation written surrounding fixed cameras with regards to this that doesn't apply to mobile camera vans operated by civilians as far as i know twistedsanity said:
thanks for your personal abuse its the reason myself and lots of other people i know don't use this forum very often now, i am happy to comply with the law when it is applied correctly
The law is the law and it applies both ways of course, if the fuzz get something wrong then there rightly should be no conviction. I'm also interested in this civilian issue however this perhaps isn't the right section to find out 
TX.
twistedsanity said:
there is separate legislation written surrounding fixed cameras with regards to this that doesn't apply to mobile camera vans operated by civilians as far as i know
Why would it need any specific legislation relating to the operator though? There have been prosecutions for various road offences based on dashcam footage from 3rd parties, and presumably loads of prosecutions for robberies/assaults/etc. based on CCTV footage (I'm assuming it's not just used to identify an individual and then gather other evidence). If the evidence shows an offence, then the veracity of the evidence needs to be proved, and presumably calibration certificates and operator competence are the main issues.if we dont need a police officer present to witness an offence then what is there to stop anyone with a transit van and a camera dishing out tickets ? You wouldn't pay if i sent you a ticket as I'm not a police officer and there is no legislation written surrounding my use of a camera and a van to say you have to, there was no police officer present and as far as i know there is no legislation written surrounding mobile vans, so bob the filing clerk with no police training who they wanted out of the office for a day as he was a pain in the arse has issued me a ticket, do i legally have to pay ? If bob worked for parking eye in sainsburys and sent me a ticket i wouldn't have to pay as there is no legislation to say his ticket is enforceable in law despite them sending me the ticket and threatening me with legal action if i fail to pay, and he would have digital evidence of me arriving and leaving the car park
twistedsanity said:
if we dont need a police officer present to witness an offence then what is there to stop anyone with a transit van and a camera dishing out tickets ? You wouldn't pay if i sent you a ticket as I'm not a police officer and there is no legislation written surrounding my use of a camera and a van to say you have to, there was no police officer present and as far as i know there is no legislation written surrounding mobile vans, so bob the filing clerk with no police training who they wanted out of the office for a day as he was a pain in the arse has issued me a ticket, do i legally have to pay ? If bob worked for parking eye in sainsburys and sent me a ticket i wouldn't have to pay as there is no legislation to say his ticket is enforceable in law despite them sending me the ticket and threatening me with legal action if i fail to pay, and he would have digital evidence of me arriving and leaving the car park
Surely anyone with a transit van and a camera can submit their evidence to the police, who may or may not act on it? I'm assuming your ticket has come from the police not from bob the filing clerk though.The legislation isn't about the camera and the van, it's about the speed on the road and whether it can be proved. Similarly in your parking eye example the legislation is about the legality of parking there not the legal status of the parking warden.
As I understand it if you take it court to contest it they have to produce the certificates to prove the equipment was correctly calibrated. Not sure about operator competence, the one that got me had a photo clearly showing crosshairs centred on my number plate so looks pretty idiot proof.
twistedsanity said:
Trying to find info on this as i know it was challenged in court but can't find the outcome, in the case of a mobile speed camera van does there need to be a police constable present to witness the offence ?
No.twistedsanity said:
Is there any chance of me contesting it and winning ...?
Not much.twistedsanity said:
if we dont need a police officer present to witness an offence then what is there to stop anyone with a transit van and a camera dishing out tickets ?
(1) OK, not content with stealing your car, I have upped my game and murdered you while doing so. No police officer saw me do this. A civilian did see me do this. In your world, I can't be convicted. Beginning to get a clue, maybe?(2) If transit bloke sends you a madey-uppy ticket, you can ignore it. If an organisation that has been tasked by Parliament with enforcing speed limits sends you a ticket, you might be unwise to ignore it.
General point: the law is not all about technicality and get out of jail free cards. w
ky points fail in court. Because they are wky. on the flip side then if a police officer doesn't witness a crime then no crime has taken place, is that what you're saying ? Seems like a Mr Loophole type defense, worth fighting if you really don't want a small fine and points and can afford ££££ of legal costs and fancy a punt and a day in court.
Call as an expert witness a Professor of Cartesian Philosophy of Mind.
Better still, call a Particle Physicist and demonstrate the double slit experiment. "Your Honour, this electron doesn't know if it is a particle or a wave until someone at Caltech observes it sort of being both. Er... I think".
Better still, call a Particle Physicist and demonstrate the double slit experiment. "Your Honour, this electron doesn't know if it is a particle or a wave until someone at Caltech observes it sort of being both. Er... I think".
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