Police expenditure
Discussion
This is something that has intrigued me for a long time when it comes to the type of vehicles the police buy and utilise, because let's face it, they are actually ours, we all pay for them.
This has come to light again through SC 5011s post about being stopped for 103 MPH.
When I asked him to mail me some details I discovered that the police vehicle was a BMW X5 4x4.
What I'd like the BiB on here to tell me if they can is why that vehicle.
It is one of the most expensive 4x4s on the market, not just to buy in the first place, but the fuel consumption and servicing costs are astronomical.
Why on earth do the police feel that they need a 4x4 to patrol the motorway; it is the least suited of all vehicles to do so.
But if they have a reason then what is wrong with any of the Jap 4x4s at literally a third of the price and with infinitely better fuel consumption.
In 1972 Jaguar launched the XJ12 saloon. It was an utterly phenomenal car and one of the quickest saloons in the world at the time.
The police in the Glasgow area then were still using old 3.8 mk2s and some new XJ6 4.2 manual saloons.
These were seriously quick with a manual box and also very economical in their day.
The police however decided to buy a V12, only supplied with an autobox.
This was 50% more expensive to buy than the six cylinder and returned TEN MPG at the hands of the police drivers, (who of course loved it!)
Eventually the political pressure got the better of them as the bills rolled in and the cost of running these things spiralled, but to this day I have never found out who it is that actually makes the decision to order such exotic machinery and how they can possibly justify it.
How about the X5 lads? Why?
This has come to light again through SC 5011s post about being stopped for 103 MPH.
When I asked him to mail me some details I discovered that the police vehicle was a BMW X5 4x4.
What I'd like the BiB on here to tell me if they can is why that vehicle.
It is one of the most expensive 4x4s on the market, not just to buy in the first place, but the fuel consumption and servicing costs are astronomical.
Why on earth do the police feel that they need a 4x4 to patrol the motorway; it is the least suited of all vehicles to do so.
But if they have a reason then what is wrong with any of the Jap 4x4s at literally a third of the price and with infinitely better fuel consumption.
In 1972 Jaguar launched the XJ12 saloon. It was an utterly phenomenal car and one of the quickest saloons in the world at the time.
The police in the Glasgow area then were still using old 3.8 mk2s and some new XJ6 4.2 manual saloons.
These were seriously quick with a manual box and also very economical in their day.
The police however decided to buy a V12, only supplied with an autobox.
This was 50% more expensive to buy than the six cylinder and returned TEN MPG at the hands of the police drivers, (who of course loved it!)
Eventually the political pressure got the better of them as the bills rolled in and the cost of running these things spiralled, but to this day I have never found out who it is that actually makes the decision to order such exotic machinery and how they can possibly justify it.
How about the X5 lads? Why?
would have thought they choose the cars based upon the deal they get for buying en masse, which would also take into account potential repairs, costs of parts servicing, depreciation, and re-sale value.
If BMW happens to be offering a better deal than vauxhall based on a cost benifit analysis I cant see the problem myself...
If BMW happens to be offering a better deal than vauxhall based on a cost benifit analysis I cant see the problem myself...
There's also the argument that they need a car that can handle speed whilst heavily loaded and can also tow heavy/crashed vehicles. Presumably they were offered a deal on the BMs that was better than anything Range Rover could do.
What gets me are the HATOs in Range Rovers. They don't need the ability to speed, so they should be in Jap diesel 4X4s. (Although if they're buying with the same fleet as local BiB they may work out cheaper.)
What gets me are the HATOs in Range Rovers. They don't need the ability to speed, so they should be in Jap diesel 4X4s. (Although if they're buying with the same fleet as local BiB they may work out cheaper.)
IOLAIRE said:
What I'd like the BiB on here to tell me if they can is why that vehicle.
Reliablity and resale, suitablity of the product to fit the role required after reseacrh has been done.
IOLAIRE said:
It is one of the most expensive 4x4s on the market, not just to buy in the first place, but the fuel consumption and servicing costs are astronomical.
Not when you have a fleet buying policy and the discounts that go with it. Not when you do not pay the tax on fuel!
IOLAIRE said:
Why on earth do the police feel that they need a 4x4 to patrol the motorway; it is the least suited of all vehicles to do so.
Have you tried pulling mangled vehicles out of the carriageway tangled together or without their wheels in an Omega?
BMW X5 is also more suited to the performance role as well as the 4X4 and carries a lot more equipment than a patrol car because its design weights are higher for loading it.
IOLAIRE said:
But if they have a reason then what is wrong with any of the Jap 4x4s at literally a third of the price and with infinitely better fuel consumption.
Nothing is wrong with them. Some forces use them for that role. Others have specific deals with certain manufacturers who agree to do all the servicing or even train the force mechanics up as relevant dealership qualified personnel. They even allow the force to purchase the warranty rights to the fleet if they do this.
Fuel consumption is debatable regarding the comparison.
IOLAIRE said:
but to this day I have never found out who it is that actually makes the decision to order such exotic machinery and how they can possibly justify it.
How about the X5 lads? Why?
The Chief Constable makes the ultimate decision after consultation with his business manager, the force transport manager and the details of the trail findings after all the vehicles have been evaluted.
You would be amazed at what price BMW are willing to allow the police to have those cars for!
Manufacturers also like the fact the Police use them as it is free advertising and if the public see that the Police are using a particular vehicle, then it must be robust and reliable! If it is policeman proof and still servicable, it has got to be good!!!
mechsympathy said:And go off-road (embankments, fields, etc.) when necessary. Apparently it happens more than one might think. They are also good in the winter. I saw a range Rover clear the A34 of a rolled (frozen) milk tanker in Jan '91 by dragging it sideways onto the central reservation - Streaky
There's also the argument that they need a car that can handle speed whilst heavily loaded and can also tow heavy/crashed vehicles. Presumably they were offered a deal on the BMs that was better than anything Range Rover could do.
I remember a few years ago when I first priced up a lease car:
Rover 620 Cost £14-15K ish, lease about £620/month
BMW 318SE Cost £19k ish, lease about £420/month
Difference, the Rover was worth about £0.50 after 3 years, the BMW £11k.
It requires deeper thought that cost to budget sensibly.
Rover 620 Cost £14-15K ish, lease about £620/month
BMW 318SE Cost £19k ish, lease about £420/month
Difference, the Rover was worth about £0.50 after 3 years, the BMW £11k.
It requires deeper thought that cost to budget sensibly.
gone said:
What he said
Additionally, the cars all have to be type approved, as it were. I think its the PSDB* or similar that do the testing and say whether the vehicles would be suitable for Police use.
*PSDB - Police Scientific Development Board
God alone know who ticked the box for Humberside's Protons though. Although they've now got these:
Hughesie2 said:
You would be amazed at what price BMW are willing to allow the police to have those cars for!
I'm not actually, but i am surprised when a force goes down the more expensive route becasue Mondeo's have a better force image than a Beemer...
That's very true, but they dont give a damn what people think obviously!
The image the police force are sending the public is that of wealth and 'look how we spend your money'.
It is absolutely NOT essential for them to use top of the range Beemers, Merc, Lexus etc.
Many of my friends have commented about this and what a bad image it sends to the public, especially in the era of the speeding fine.
destroyer said:
I remember a few years ago when I first priced up a lease car:
Rover 620 Cost £14-15K ish, lease about £620/month
BMW 318SE Cost £19k ish, lease about £420/month
Difference, the Rover was worth about £0.50 after 3 years, the BMW £11k.
It requires deeper thought that cost to budget sensibly.
You don't seriously think the Police budget sensibly do you ?
It's the same as the rest of the public sector. Spend up at the end of the year or your budget is cut. Plead poverty continually in an attempt to get it raised. Spend masses on fancy junk that doesn't work because the purchasers are (i) stupid and (ii) aren't held responsible for their decisions.
Horses for courses whilst getting the biggest bang for your buck.
Mind you when the bucks are rationed it brings up some surprising results.
During one of the times of financial downturn a certain force known to me replaced many of its traffic and response cars with boggers 2.0 Cavaliers. Basically standard apart from uprated brakes which had proved to be lacking as OEM spec.
All the drivers moaned, it takes us ages to get anywhere, we can't this, we can't that, they wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding .... I'm sure the picture is clear.
Average time to arrive at scene did indeed increase, but by not a lot.... 2.3 seconds or something similar.
However there were issues in real life effectiveness and reliability, so at earliest opportunity things were changed back to proper vehicles that didn't have to be driven flat out everywhere.
Interesting time when drivers had to change back and apply some proper throttle control in a rwd car.
Mind you when the bucks are rationed it brings up some surprising results.
During one of the times of financial downturn a certain force known to me replaced many of its traffic and response cars with boggers 2.0 Cavaliers. Basically standard apart from uprated brakes which had proved to be lacking as OEM spec.
All the drivers moaned, it takes us ages to get anywhere, we can't this, we can't that, they wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding .... I'm sure the picture is clear.
Average time to arrive at scene did indeed increase, but by not a lot.... 2.3 seconds or something similar.
However there were issues in real life effectiveness and reliability, so at earliest opportunity things were changed back to proper vehicles that didn't have to be driven flat out everywhere.
Interesting time when drivers had to change back and apply some proper throttle control in a rwd car.
Ahh, time for an injection of reality I feel. Police budgets. Right. Of the 100% cake, about two thirds is spent on pay and pensions. Spending on the vehicle fleet accounts for a very small slice of cash.
As has been said, manufacturers virtually GIVE Police forces vehicles. A few years back, Volvo would sell us an V70 T5 for £14K. Nearly £20K off the list price. Police vehicles have to meet certain criteria as has been mentioned and there are not as many vehicles to choose from as you might imagine.
Reliability has to be an iussue. Its all very well saying why don't forces buy cheap 4x4s. We tried that when we had Discoverys as our rural 4x4. They spent more time in the workshop than they ever did on the road. Our area cars used to Rover 820s. A more woeful pile of utter crap I have never driven. It was the icing on the cake when they told us they all had to either have major chassis repairs or be scrapped because the structure of the car could not cope with the combination of stiffened suspension, equipment and hard use.
Yes, we have a couple of BMW X5s. Two vehicles out of a fleet of around 500+. I don't know what we pay for them, but I know it will be a fortune off the list price. When you look at comparable 4x4s, i.e. one that can drag a 40 tonne artic off a motorway, does anyone have any other suggestions?
As has been said, manufacturers virtually GIVE Police forces vehicles. A few years back, Volvo would sell us an V70 T5 for £14K. Nearly £20K off the list price. Police vehicles have to meet certain criteria as has been mentioned and there are not as many vehicles to choose from as you might imagine.
Reliability has to be an iussue. Its all very well saying why don't forces buy cheap 4x4s. We tried that when we had Discoverys as our rural 4x4. They spent more time in the workshop than they ever did on the road. Our area cars used to Rover 820s. A more woeful pile of utter crap I have never driven. It was the icing on the cake when they told us they all had to either have major chassis repairs or be scrapped because the structure of the car could not cope with the combination of stiffened suspension, equipment and hard use.
Yes, we have a couple of BMW X5s. Two vehicles out of a fleet of around 500+. I don't know what we pay for them, but I know it will be a fortune off the list price. When you look at comparable 4x4s, i.e. one that can drag a 40 tonne artic off a motorway, does anyone have any other suggestions?
xxplod said:
Ahh, time for an injection of reality I feel. Police budgets. Right. Of the 100% cake, about two thirds is spent on pay and pensions. Spending on the vehicle fleet accounts for a very small slice of cash.
As has been said, manufacturers virtually GIVE Police forces vehicles. A few years back, Volvo would sell us an V70 T5 for £14K. Nearly £20K off the list price. Police vehicles have to meet certain criteria as has been mentioned and there are not as many vehicles to choose from as you might imagine.
Reliability has to be an iussue. Its all very well saying why don't forces buy cheap 4x4s. We tried that when we had Discoverys as our rural 4x4. They spent more time in the workshop than they ever did on the road. Our area cars used to Rover 820s. A more woeful pile of utter crap I have never driven. It was the icing on the cake when they told us they all had to either have major chassis repairs or be scrapped because the structure of the car could not cope with the combination of stiffened suspension, equipment and hard use.
Yes, we have a couple of BMW X5s. Two vehicles out of a fleet of around 500+. I don't know what we pay for them, but I know it will be a fortune off the list price. When you look at comparable 4x4s, i.e. one that can drag a 40 tonne artic off a motorway, does anyone have any other suggestions?
Hi xxplod,
this is the answer I was looking for and hoped would come from a copper.
I know that many manufacturers give unbelievable discounts to the police, but that shouldn't alter the fact that reality has to be the deciding factor.
Included in that HAS to be safety, performance, and running costs.
The example I made from years back about the V12 Jag was clearly a collosal blunder on the individual who made the decision to buy it.
In those days Jaguar built the cars specially for the police and they had things like ambla upholstery instead of leather and many other savings that not only made them cheaper but also more practical for traffic use.
You are right about Land Rover; this for me has always been an enigma.
Every single customer I have ever had who works a Land Rover, particularly a Discovery, had constant and brutally expensive repair bills, they just have no build integrity whatever.
I also agree with you xxplod about the Rover 800s.
The first 827s in Glasgow had horrendous problems with the brakes; squeeling like an old London cab and fading from high speed to the point where the bloody thing would not stop!!
I fitted FIVE sets to one vehicle in six weeks!
Eventually I suggested we go down the tuning accessories route and fitted Tarox discs and pads; sorted!
Rover were worse than useless in their technical advice, despite the fact that the police were buying dozens of these cars, although by that point it was of course Honda.
The other myth was also the business of Honda engines being unbreakable; not the V6!
It regularly done in camshafts and they were collosally expensive to replace.
There was also a policy at that time to try and only buy British cars, so I think that's why they bought the Rovers and put up with the crap.
This post really was prompted because it was an X5 we wer3e talking about.
I have had experience of a couple of these and the only thing I can say about them is they were quick.
The service costs are huge and the fuel consumption is probably the worst out of any large 4x4.
I still think it is a bad choice for the police when there are so many cheaper alternatives.
The picture Dibble so very kindly sent us of the Evo is also another desperately bad choice; extremely expensive to service and too highly tuned for reliability.
Yes, they're quick, but that should be secondary in this day and age of cameras and helicopter pursuits.
The best traffic car I've ever driven was in the 70s and it was a Rover 3500S fitted with Koni suspension and a blower!!
I don't know what the output was but it was an absolute animal and yet so elegant and British in it's image, which I think is important for the police.
All interesting stuff mind you.
Ahhh. Service costs - most Police Forces (we do) have their own workshops, so servicing costs are not really an issue. They will only go to a BMW dealer if there is something that our own technicians cannot fix and BMW nearly always do everything FOC. BiB driving round in 330d area cars is a 24/7 advert for the ability of their cars. As for fuel consumption, it is splitting hairs. An X5 is no more thirsty than a Volvo T5. They average comfortably under 20mpg and the T5s eat front tyres every 6K.
If we sold a 3 year old X5 diesel with 120K on the clock for say £10K at auction, we couldn't really have any cheaper motoring.
Incidentally, we do use cheaper Nissan Terranos as our "panda car" 4x4 for rural stations. They are still thirsty at 25mpg and are virtually worthless when we sell them, so the overall cost, pence per mile is not far off that of the X5.
If we sold a 3 year old X5 diesel with 120K on the clock for say £10K at auction, we couldn't really have any cheaper motoring.
Incidentally, we do use cheaper Nissan Terranos as our "panda car" 4x4 for rural stations. They are still thirsty at 25mpg and are virtually worthless when we sell them, so the overall cost, pence per mile is not far off that of the X5.
Police seem to drive at dangerous speeds in their tarted up 330d's through our village ... must be around 70mph in a 30mph limit judging by the tyre noise more than the siren!
Strange how they (rightly) nick people for travelling at 35mph near the school yet drive at double that speed themselves.
Could they really stop in time if a kid ran out?
Strange how they (rightly) nick people for travelling at 35mph near the school yet drive at double that speed themselves.
Could they really stop in time if a kid ran out?
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