Yellow box junction PCN

[Dunno123]

Hello. I've just received a PCN for stopping in a box junction in Putney High Street with my rear wheels for 15 seconds in total (after 7 seconds I moved forward a little bit and my rear wheels were barely in the box, see the third picture).

Pictures:
1) https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Yos0rGVSvOPL-Wl...
2) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lsCO3EORoZ8AjMYK... (7 seconds)
3) https://drive.google.com/open?id=15jXnqSpGJYTrV0I0... (8 seconds)
4) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MFtpE5b_e_P0fg-4...

I don't know if it matters that it was only a few seconds or that it was only the rear wheels and I wasn't blocking anyone, but according to the link below, a box junction must meet the kerb on all 4 corners and this one extends further just like the second one on that page, so I believe it is unenforceable.

http://penaltychargenotice.co.uk/moving-traffic-co...

Do you think I have good grounds to appeal this PCN? Do I need to find and quote the law that confirms what the link above says? I haven't done this before, so any help would be appreciated a lot.

[bad company]

Looks harsh, I should ask at Pepipoo.

[Pica-Pica]

This seems a regular question here, at least twice a month.
Separate from this, some people, when queuing, hate leaving a gap at a side junction to the left in case anyone dares to enter ‘their’ road. The inevitable consequence is that people coming the other way, and wanting to turn into that junction then ensure a tailback is on the other side.

Box junctions, and ‘keep clear’ signs are for when common sense and courtesy are found wanting (very often).

[bad company]

Pica-Pica said:

This seems a regular question here, at least twice a month.
Separate from this, some people, when queuing, hate leaving a gap at a side junction to the left in case anyone dares to enter ‘their’ road. The inevitable consequence is that people coming the other way, and wanting to turn into that junction then ensure a tailback is on the other side.

Box junctions, and ‘keep clear’ signs are for when common sense and courtesy are found wanting (very often).

I’m sure the op will find your comments very useful.

Increasingly box junctions are used to generate revenue for local authorities.

[Red Devil]

Dunno123 said:

Hello. I've just received a PCN for stopping in a box junction in Putney High Street with my rear wheels for 15 seconds in total (after 7 seconds I moved forward a little bit and my rear wheels were barely in the box, see the third picture).

Pictures:
1) https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Yos0rGVSvOPL-Wl...
2) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lsCO3EORoZ8AjMYK... (7 seconds)
3) https://drive.google.com/open?id=15jXnqSpGJYTrV0I0... (8 seconds)
4) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MFtpE5b_e_P0fg-4...

I don't know if it matters that it was only a few seconds or that it was only the rear wheels and I wasn't blocking anyone, but according to the link below, a box junction must meet the kerb on all 4 corners and this one extends further just like the second one on that page, so I believe it is unenforceable.

http://penaltychargenotice.co.uk/moving-traffic-co...

Do you think I have good grounds to appeal this PCN? Do I need to find and quote the law that confirms what the link above says? I haven't done this before, so any help would be appreciated a lot.

The link you have quoted once again trots out the Highway Code spiel. However the word 'until' occurs nowhere in the relevant legislation.
The only viable defence would be Essoo - https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/f...
However that doesn't apply in your case so I reckon you're going to have an uphill struggle..

The 4 corners requirement is not an automatic PCN killer. The LA is at liberty to apply to the SoS for special authorisation.
Have a look at these cases - https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases?f...
This may or may not help you (it's old and may well have been superseded) - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

Forget about 'only a few seconds' and 'only the rear wheels'. You'll get nowhere with those.

[Dunno123]

Pica-Pica said:

This seems a regular question here, at least twice a month.
Separate from this, some people, when queuing, hate leaving a gap at a side junction to the left in case anyone dares to enter ‘their’ road. The inevitable consequence is that people coming the other way, and wanting to turn into that junction then ensure a tailback is on the other side.

Box junctions, and ‘keep clear’ signs are for when common sense and courtesy are found wanting (very often).

I always leave a gap and let people go (yellow box or not). The car in front was slowing down, but wasn't stationary when I entered the box, although I am not saying I couldn't have avoided it if I had paid more attention. The point is the "junction box" goes beyond the junction and that's where I stopped (not blocking the junction).

[Dave Hedgehog]

i have been done by TFL for exactly the same thing, rear tyres just touching the edge of the box

scam artists

[Dunno123]

Red Devil said:

Forget about 'only a few seconds' and 'only the rear wheels'. You'll get nowhere with those.

That's what I thought. I'll have a look at the links you provided later when I get home. Thank you for your time.

[anonymous-user]

From what I have seen, local authorities are only very rarely lenient on these things

stopped at all in the yellow box (i.e. even one wheel touching the outermost edge of the paint) = ticket

hard to appeal successfully given the black & white nature of the offence

I am not sure I would waste my time with an appeal tbh, but I can understand why people do

[Bennet]

I think I'd happily slap anyone around the face who thinks this is fair or reasonable.

[Terminator X]

Wonderful use of CCTV some sat there all day handing out tickets wait until they roll out facial recognition ...

TX.

[Occam's Razor]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i have been done by TFL for exactly the same thing, rear tyres just touching the edge of the box

scam artists

Well no, they aren’t scam artists at all. The Highway Code says you cannot enter the box until your exit is clear. The exit is clear when there’s enough room to fit your vehicle between the end of the markings and the preceding car. If you stop in the box (other than to turn right) you’re not conforming and risk having a penalty.

It’s not rocket science.

If you don’t agree with the markings at a certain junction then take it up with the local authority or highways agency, don’t moan about getting caught breaking a rule.

[Bennet]

Occam's Razor said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

i have been done by TFL for exactly the same thing, rear tyres just touching the edge of the box

scam artists

Well no, they aren’t scam artists at all. The Highway Code says you cannot enter the box until your exit is clear. The exit is clear when there’s enough room to fit your vehicle between the end of the markings and the preceding car. If you stop in the box (other than to turn right) you’re not conforming and risk having a penalty.

It’s not rocket science.

If you don’t agree with the markings at a certain junction then take it up with the local authority or highways agency, don’t moan about getting caught breaking a rule.

Guessing you're trolling, but if you truly think it's reasonable to fine people for extremely minor infringements or lapses in judgement that impeded no one else, and never had the potential to impede anyone else there is something wrong with you.

[Stoofa]

Bennet said:

Guessing you're trolling, but if you truly think it's reasonable to fine people for extremely minor infringements or lapses in judgement that impeded no one else, and never had the potential to impede anyone else there is something wrong with you.

I don't see how anybody is "trolling" when all they are doing is telling you the truth, that you don't want to hear.
The rules are straight forward and it means everybody is using the same measuring post. Everyone has to obey the same rules and it means that when they are broken, a punishment can be issued - quickly and cleanly.
Now bring in the system you would prefer, where every single offence needs to be investigated. Some people are fined one day, then the next, when somebody else has an opinion they aren't.
Clogged up systems, more people employed to investigate.....sounds like a good use of money.

Nobody likes being caught doing something they shouldn't. But calling it a "scam" just because you get caught.

[Bumblebee7]

Technically you were in the box junction as has been said, the short duration and fact it was rear wheels only won't be a defence.

I do think the council are thieving b*stards, despite what others have said above in the thread you are absolutely not blocking that junction at all and the yellow box junction is excessive, and as pointed out a complete unnecessary cash cow. If only government funds could be used to reduce crime half as much as they are used to penalise motorists for arbitrary infractions.

I don't have particularly useful advice to give you that will help, but I do wish you luck in getting this resolved. I have had a parking ticket cancelled by Camden council as I pointed out the markings on the road were unlawful and so the ticket was unenforceable (I P&D in a residents only bay, but no clear line indicating where P&D ended and residents started). They cancelled the fine, but made out as if they were doing as a gesture of goodwill as opposed to admitting any liability.

[Toltec]

They love their technicalities, my mum got a parking ticket when parked for a few minutes to pick up a prescription, her crime was having the back of the car just outside the parking box and touching the double yellows.

Fair cop you might say.

Except she has a blue badge so not only does she not need to pay for parking, but she could have stopped on the double yellows, she thought that she was doing the right thing by using as much of the parking area as possible. It seems that while she could legitimately park in either area without a fine the rules about parking across the boundary of the marked parking area means she gets a ticket.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Occam's Razor said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

i have been done by TFL for exactly the same thing, rear tyres just touching the edge of the box

scam artists

Well no, they aren’t scam artists at all. The Highway Code says you cannot enter the box until your exit is clear. The exit is clear when there’s enough room to fit your vehicle between the end of the markings and the preceding car. If you stop in the box (other than to turn right) you’re not conforming and risk having a penalty.

and what if it is clear when you enter and the dick head next to you nails it, chops across the front of you and forces you to do an emergency stop (this happens to me at least once a month in london)

or its clear for 3 - 4 cars and the car in front hits the brakes leaving 3 spaces infront of them so they can check their phone

or its clear and a nobber on a bicycle comes up your blind spot and swearves in front of you as they pass forcing you to brake (this is pretty much a daily event in london)

[KevinCamaroSS]

Dave Hedgehog said:

and what if it is clear when you enter and the dick head next to you nails it, chops across the front of you and forces you to do an emergency stop (this happens to me at least once a month in london)

or its clear for 3 - 4 cars and the car in front hits the brakes leaving 3 spaces infront of them so they can check their phone

or its clear and a nobber on a bicycle comes up your blind spot and swearves in front of you as they pass forcing you to brake (this is pretty much a daily event in london)

Good defence if you can prove it (dashcam). The offence is to enter the yellow box when the exit is not clear (or words to that effect).

[carboy2017]

Occam's Razor said:

If you don’t agree with the markings at a certain junction then take it up with the local authority or highways agency, don’t moan about getting caught breaking a rule.

Stop acting a hypocrite please

Its not moaning but the OP has a fair question as I strongly feel that its virtually impossible to avoid touching the lines at times if there is someone cutting across you or have stalled

[Dave Hedgehog]

KevinCamaroSS said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

and what if it is clear when you enter and the dick head next to you nails it, chops across the front of you and forces you to do an emergency stop (this happens to me at least once a month in london)

or its clear for 3 - 4 cars and the car in front hits the brakes leaving 3 spaces infront of them so they can check their phone

or its clear and a nobber on a bicycle comes up your blind spot and swearves in front of you as they pass forcing you to brake (this is pretty much a daily event in london)

Good defence if you can prove it (dashcam). The offence is to enter the yellow box when the exit is not clear (or words to that effect).

The TfL tickets say 'stopping in a yellow box junction' i dont recall them mentioning exit is clear

and who has the time to trapse across london to have an appeals meeting