Return of Stolen Property
Discussion
Is there a time limit?
If you discover an item, say an Aston Martin engine, which had been nicked in the 1990s, with full police report, engine number etc and insurance pay out, and you discovered it again today in an advertisement, or even in another car, is it still your property?
Maybe it is the property of the insurance company but have you the right to buy it from them?
Would it make a difference if it was not insured?
It may have changed hands several times or it may still be with the original thief, does this make a difference?
Are cars and their parts treated differently to other items such as works of art?
I had a beautiful grandfather clock from the 1700s with a rocking galleon movement at the top, made by a local craftsman with his name and the name of the town. It had been in our family for generations, at least from the early 1800s and my grandmother used to put me on a stool to wind it up when I was a little kid "one day this will be yours" etc
It was nicked in 1992 and #i have been looking for it ever since "William Ward, Spilsby" painted dial with a shortened case as it had to fit in my grandmothers house with low ceilings, should any of you happen to see it.
I suspect that it went abroad, so say I was to find this or any other unique item in a Eurozone country, is there any legal arrangement that we have to return the item to the rightful owner?
If you discover an item, say an Aston Martin engine, which had been nicked in the 1990s, with full police report, engine number etc and insurance pay out, and you discovered it again today in an advertisement, or even in another car, is it still your property?
Maybe it is the property of the insurance company but have you the right to buy it from them?
Would it make a difference if it was not insured?
It may have changed hands several times or it may still be with the original thief, does this make a difference?
Are cars and their parts treated differently to other items such as works of art?
I had a beautiful grandfather clock from the 1700s with a rocking galleon movement at the top, made by a local craftsman with his name and the name of the town. It had been in our family for generations, at least from the early 1800s and my grandmother used to put me on a stool to wind it up when I was a little kid "one day this will be yours" etc
It was nicked in 1992 and #i have been looking for it ever since "William Ward, Spilsby" painted dial with a shortened case as it had to fit in my grandmothers house with low ceilings, should any of you happen to see it.
I suspect that it went abroad, so say I was to find this or any other unique item in a Eurozone country, is there any legal arrangement that we have to return the item to the rightful owner?
Vanin said:
Is there a time limit?
If you discover an item, say an Aston Martin engine, which had been nicked in the 1990s, with full police report, engine number etc and insurance pay out, and you discovered it again today in an advertisement, or even in another car, is it still your property?
Maybe it is the property of the insurance company but have you the right to buy it from them?
Would it make a difference if it was not insured?
It may have changed hands several times or it may still be with the original thief, does this make a difference?
Are cars and their parts treated differently to other items such as works of art?
I had a beautiful grandfather clock from the 1700s with a rocking galleon movement at the top, made by a local craftsman with his name and the name of the town. It had been in our family for generations, at least from the early 1800s and my grandmother used to put me on a stool to wind it up when I was a little kid "one day this will be yours" etc
It was nicked in 1992 and #i have been looking for it ever since "William Ward, Spilsby" painted dial with a shortened case as it had to fit in my grandmothers house with low ceilings, should any of you happen to see it.
I suspect that it went abroad, so say I was to find this or any other unique item in a Eurozone country, is there any legal arrangement that we have to return the item to the rightful owner?
It can have more than one legal owner.If you discover an item, say an Aston Martin engine, which had been nicked in the 1990s, with full police report, engine number etc and insurance pay out, and you discovered it again today in an advertisement, or even in another car, is it still your property?
Maybe it is the property of the insurance company but have you the right to buy it from them?
Would it make a difference if it was not insured?
It may have changed hands several times or it may still be with the original thief, does this make a difference?
Are cars and their parts treated differently to other items such as works of art?
I had a beautiful grandfather clock from the 1700s with a rocking galleon movement at the top, made by a local craftsman with his name and the name of the town. It had been in our family for generations, at least from the early 1800s and my grandmother used to put me on a stool to wind it up when I was a little kid "one day this will be yours" etc
It was nicked in 1992 and #i have been looking for it ever since "William Ward, Spilsby" painted dial with a shortened case as it had to fit in my grandmothers house with low ceilings, should any of you happen to see it.
I suspect that it went abroad, so say I was to find this or any other unique item in a Eurozone country, is there any legal arrangement that we have to return the item to the rightful owner?
If insurance have paid out they've taken your title to it, but a person who has purchased it in good faith also has title. It would be for a court to decide. Multiple countries will just make things more complicated.
If it has real sentimental value over monetary making the person in current lawful possession an offer they can't refuse for it is the simplest way to secure (as much as that may go against the grain).
Ownership of property is not lost merely by the passing of time. The making of a payment by an insurer does not automatically render the insurer the owner of the property.
Recovery of property might be complicated by the claims of intervening possessors of the property, but in theory, subject to sufficient evidence, it might be possible to recover an item that was lost or stolen long ago.
Recovery of property might be complicated by the claims of intervening possessors of the property, but in theory, subject to sufficient evidence, it might be possible to recover an item that was lost or stolen long ago.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 5th August 11:02
vonhosen said:
It can have more than one legal owner.
...a person who has purchased it in good faith also has title. ...
The first statement is incorrect, unless you are referring to consensual co ownership. It is impossible for two competing claims to legal ownership of an item each to be valid. ...a person who has purchased it in good faith also has title. ...
The second statement is incorrect if expressed as a general rule. In some circumstances, a good faith purchaser may obtain ownership of an item, but the general principle is that a person cannot give (or sell) that which he or she does not have. If anyone wants Latin: nemo dat quod not habet.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 5th August 15:35
Reminds me of this story about a stolen e type being returned to its owner after almost 50 years since it was stolen.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-2924902...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-2924902...
Vanin said:
"William Ward, Spilsby"
We have a William Ward - clearly animation was one of skills as ours has a lion and his eyes sweep back and forth....More recent example of your question https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/rare-a...
Or you could get lucky that the insurance company has gone out of business...
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/07/05/hot-prope...
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/07/05/hot-prope...
Breadvan72 said:
The second statement is incorrect if expressed as a general rule. In some circumstances, a good faith purchaser may obtain ownership of an item, but the general principle is that a person cannot give (or sell) that which he or she does not have. If anyone wants Latin: nemo dat quod not habet.
Very very rare since market ouvert was abolished in the UK in 1994. Pretty much now have to acquired title in a foreign or devolved jurisdiction where it is still legal. Willhire89 said:
We have a William Ward - clearly animation was one of skills as ours has a lion and his eyes sweep back and forth....
More recent example of your question https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/rare-a...
I assume yours has a painted dial as well. I have never seen another one, even on the web.More recent example of your question https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/rare-a...
As for the rest of the replies, thank you all for trying to help but it does not seem very clear cut as there are a lot of "perhaps', and maybes"
If i take the examples of the Aston engine, where there is a V5 with the engine number on it or the clock with photographs of it in my house, and there was no insurance involved then it seems that a return to the rightful owner is possible and the law, although the law may have to be enforced with a decision by a jury. And there is no reasonable time limit
A jury would have no role in the scenarios you describe. A claim for recovery of property would be a civil claim decided by a Judge, not a jury. You cannot expect a binary yes/no, black/white answer on vague and sketchy facts. The answer to any legal question depends on the precise circumstances.
Many years ago I bought an XR2 engine from a breakers yard.
Put it in my vehicle and went to get a bracket welded on the vehicle and as the car started as a Fiesta 950 but now was full XR2 spec the owner of the garage who done recovery work for Durham police made a call to them, engine came back as stolen and I had to show the chain of purchase, etc
In the end the engine was the property of Lloyds of London as they had paid out on the vehicle the engine had come from.
Only turned out to have been the vehicle of a policeman!
I had to write to Lloyds and explain that I had bought the engine as a runner but in need of rebuild which I had already had done.
They let me keep the engine.
Put it in my vehicle and went to get a bracket welded on the vehicle and as the car started as a Fiesta 950 but now was full XR2 spec the owner of the garage who done recovery work for Durham police made a call to them, engine came back as stolen and I had to show the chain of purchase, etc
In the end the engine was the property of Lloyds of London as they had paid out on the vehicle the engine had come from.
Only turned out to have been the vehicle of a policeman!
I had to write to Lloyds and explain that I had bought the engine as a runner but in need of rebuild which I had already had done.
They let me keep the engine.
Vanin said:
7795 said:
What if your 6500kms Ferrari F40 was stolen in 1999 and you were paid out in full £167000.
If that reappears and is now worth £1m+, can I get it back? (real scenario - Grrrrrrrrrrrr).
Good question! Any barristers out there?If that reappears and is now worth £1m+, can I get it back? (real scenario - Grrrrrrrrrrrr).
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