Speeding offence advice
Discussion
Morning guys, I'm after a bit of advice regarding the above.
A few weeks ago I had a speeding ticket along the M4 (57mph in a 50mph), due to my living arrangements at the time I was slow to respond to the fixed notice penalty so it escalated. A short while later the paper work came through and I filled it out etc fully accepting I was in the wrong and I would be fined.
Few days later I receive a "Further steps notice" demanding I pay £811. I was really pissed off with the tone of this document and the fact that it didn't actually tell me what the fine was for. I ring them up assuming they have come down on me heavy for the above offence, I was wrong. It turns out that by sending off my guilty plea to the Court's it triggered their system and paperwork from another court case had now found its way to my correct address.
After about 30 minutes on the phone, I establish that it relates back to a speeding offence back in December again along the M4 (79mph in a 50mph) and the fact that I had not provided the driver details. I instantly remember the occasion because I had triggered the speed trap in a white BMW - a hire car. I explain to the chap on the phone that this is actually the first I have heard of this and after a few questions he accepted that, he made me swear under oath that I hadn't and then explained that I would go to court to "reset" the charge of failing to produce, he explained the £811 fine had been abolished and the 6 points I had been issued had been removed.
Fast forward to yesterday and I go to the Magistrates Court pretty relaxed about everything knowing full well I had no knowledge of this. As suggested I swear under oath. It turns out that for whatever reason, the paperwork had been sent to an address that I lived at 5 YEARS ago, I have moved 4 times since then updating my records every time. The Magistrate confirmed that she thought I was genuine, removed the fine and the points.
Then basically she starts attacking me about the speed I was doing, I was not prepared for this. They start telling me that I am under a very real threat of being banned here today and that I needed to make a plea, she states that pleading guilty would reduce the "sentence" and any fine that will come my way. She asked "Guilty or not guilty?" to which I responded I could not confirm either (it happened in December FFS) and then told me that I have to make a plea one way or the other.
Despite not actually knowing whether I had been speeding or without a shred of evidence, I made a rash decision to plead guilty in hope of the judge going lighter on me with the fine and the points. She then starts asking about my speeding history to which I tell her I had 3 points a few weeks ago but before that - I had a clean licence for probably 7 years or so, she now knows that I have 3 points on my licence.
Next thing sentencing, she informs me "I am a lucky boy" and issued me with 6 points and a £600 fine. So at this moment, I have 9 points and a £900 fine for doing an average of 68mph down the M4 motorway and a few things don't sit right with me. I'll list them as follows:-
I have a business that I cannot run without a licence and I am also battling Anxiety of late, having just 3 points left on my licence puts me in a category where I do not want to drive and I have fears that this will effect my business, my livelihood and the livelihood of several other people
Any advice is appreciated.
A few weeks ago I had a speeding ticket along the M4 (57mph in a 50mph), due to my living arrangements at the time I was slow to respond to the fixed notice penalty so it escalated. A short while later the paper work came through and I filled it out etc fully accepting I was in the wrong and I would be fined.
Few days later I receive a "Further steps notice" demanding I pay £811. I was really pissed off with the tone of this document and the fact that it didn't actually tell me what the fine was for. I ring them up assuming they have come down on me heavy for the above offence, I was wrong. It turns out that by sending off my guilty plea to the Court's it triggered their system and paperwork from another court case had now found its way to my correct address.
After about 30 minutes on the phone, I establish that it relates back to a speeding offence back in December again along the M4 (79mph in a 50mph) and the fact that I had not provided the driver details. I instantly remember the occasion because I had triggered the speed trap in a white BMW - a hire car. I explain to the chap on the phone that this is actually the first I have heard of this and after a few questions he accepted that, he made me swear under oath that I hadn't and then explained that I would go to court to "reset" the charge of failing to produce, he explained the £811 fine had been abolished and the 6 points I had been issued had been removed.
Fast forward to yesterday and I go to the Magistrates Court pretty relaxed about everything knowing full well I had no knowledge of this. As suggested I swear under oath. It turns out that for whatever reason, the paperwork had been sent to an address that I lived at 5 YEARS ago, I have moved 4 times since then updating my records every time. The Magistrate confirmed that she thought I was genuine, removed the fine and the points.
Then basically she starts attacking me about the speed I was doing, I was not prepared for this. They start telling me that I am under a very real threat of being banned here today and that I needed to make a plea, she states that pleading guilty would reduce the "sentence" and any fine that will come my way. She asked "Guilty or not guilty?" to which I responded I could not confirm either (it happened in December FFS) and then told me that I have to make a plea one way or the other.
Despite not actually knowing whether I had been speeding or without a shred of evidence, I made a rash decision to plead guilty in hope of the judge going lighter on me with the fine and the points. She then starts asking about my speeding history to which I tell her I had 3 points a few weeks ago but before that - I had a clean licence for probably 7 years or so, she now knows that I have 3 points on my licence.
Next thing sentencing, she informs me "I am a lucky boy" and issued me with 6 points and a £600 fine. So at this moment, I have 9 points and a £900 fine for doing an average of 68mph down the M4 motorway and a few things don't sit right with me. I'll list them as follows:-
- I have not seen any evidence that I was issued with a FNP
- I have no recollection of the "crime" - I had been to Manchester and back that day from Swansea so remembering one small stretch almost a year ago is difficult
- In fact they didn't even know which section of road it was, just "M4 NEWPORT"
- The chap on the phone from HMCTS did not tell me that I would face sentencing for the original speeding offence
- The documentation confirming my court date did not mention making a plea
- If I would have known I was going to be sentenced I would have had legal advice and possibly taken a solicitor
- I was put under pressure on the spot to produce a plea, something I was not expecting to do
- Considering the judge was aware of the time and day of the offence I think 6 points is extremely harsh. It was 11pm on a Sunday night.
- I am no legal expert so I walked in feeling relaxed with "belief in the system", I walked out feeling like I had been ambushed and mugged by a load of unsympathetic bullies
I have a business that I cannot run without a licence and I am also battling Anxiety of late, having just 3 points left on my licence puts me in a category where I do not want to drive and I have fears that this will effect my business, my livelihood and the livelihood of several other people
Any advice is appreciated.
You need to speak to a lawyer specialising in motoring matters. Not an internet forum - unless someone like agtlaw wants to get involved.This would have been your best course before going to court.
As far as your driving is concerned as you now have no room for other offences & speeding does seem to be your weakness you just need to drive Miss Daisy.
Sentencing for the 79/50 shows here as a Band C fine and either a ban of 7 - 56 days OR 6 points
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item... & the court have opted for points instead of disqualifying you.
No idea whether the fine is dispropotionate as we don't know your declared income. Fine calculator here: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/fine-calculat...
ETA. 79 in a 50 would be process for summons not a FPN & the paper work originally sent would have been the NIP & S172 request to the registered keeper & you say it was a hire car so it would be the hire company & assuming that was served on them within the 14 days then service would be deemed good. They would have given the address you gave them.
As far as your driving is concerned as you now have no room for other offences & speeding does seem to be your weakness you just need to drive Miss Daisy.
Sentencing for the 79/50 shows here as a Band C fine and either a ban of 7 - 56 days OR 6 points
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item... & the court have opted for points instead of disqualifying you.
No idea whether the fine is dispropotionate as we don't know your declared income. Fine calculator here: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/fine-calculat...
ETA. 79 in a 50 would be process for summons not a FPN & the paper work originally sent would have been the NIP & S172 request to the registered keeper & you say it was a hire car so it would be the hire company & assuming that was served on them within the 14 days then service would be deemed good. They would have given the address you gave them.
Edited by paintman on Friday 7th September 10:27
Sounds like an unfortunate few weeks for you. IANAl, and if you are considering appealing the sentence or attempting to get the plea reversed then I would strongly suggest that you get proper legal advice.
I don't think there is much to be achieved. They believed that you never got the S172 notice so they haven't dealt with that, but the speeding is a separate matter. It was a hire car so the NIP stuff is going to be moot. You can appeal the sentence (Within 21 days IIRC) but it is not high up the sentencing guidelines. It is nearly impossible to get the plea struck out and start again (An appeal against sentence from a Mags Court does involve hearing the facts again anyway) Even if you could put them to proof, you know that the camera flashed you so unless they have lost it then the verdict will be the same and you are in more jeapordy of losing your licence.
In theory they can add an additional penalty on appeal but this is incredibly rare and they will tell you in advance. They can and probably will add costs if you lose.
I don't think there is much to be achieved. They believed that you never got the S172 notice so they haven't dealt with that, but the speeding is a separate matter. It was a hire car so the NIP stuff is going to be moot. You can appeal the sentence (Within 21 days IIRC) but it is not high up the sentencing guidelines. It is nearly impossible to get the plea struck out and start again (An appeal against sentence from a Mags Court does involve hearing the facts again anyway) Even if you could put them to proof, you know that the camera flashed you so unless they have lost it then the verdict will be the same and you are in more jeapordy of losing your licence.
In theory they can add an additional penalty on appeal but this is incredibly rare and they will tell you in advance. They can and probably will add costs if you lose.
paintman said:
You need to speak to a lawyer specialising in motoring matters. Not an internet forum - unless someone like agtlaw wants to get involved.This would have been your best course before going to court.
As far as your driving is concerned as you now have no room for other offences & speeding does seem to be your weakness you just need to drive Miss Daisy.
Sentencing for the 79/50 shows here as a Band C fine and either a ban of 7 - 56 days OR 6 points
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item... & the court have opted for points instead of disqualifying you.
No idea whether the fine is dispropotionate as we don't know your declared income. Fine calculator here: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/fine-calculat...
This is my major concern though, at no point was I told that I was going to be in Court for speeding. Like I said, If I would have known this I would have got appropriate advice.As far as your driving is concerned as you now have no room for other offences & speeding does seem to be your weakness you just need to drive Miss Daisy.
Sentencing for the 79/50 shows here as a Band C fine and either a ban of 7 - 56 days OR 6 points
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item... & the court have opted for points instead of disqualifying you.
No idea whether the fine is dispropotionate as we don't know your declared income. Fine calculator here: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/fine-calculat...
I turned up to Court to sort out a Statutory Declaration concerning a charge of failing to produce, this is the letter:-
I was not ill prepared. I was ill informed in my opinion. Like I said, I am no legal expert so I don't know how these things work, all I know is that from "Joe Publics" point of view at no point was I told I would be facing any charges for speeding on the day. As a result of such I made a haste plea not knowing the full facts or the potential outcome.
Tuvra said:
As a result of such I made a haste plea not knowing the full facts or the potential outcome.
I appreciate that it must have come as a shock, but in hindsight having the "Failure to Disclose" charge withdrawn leaves them saying " So let me ask you again, was it you or someone else? " and it's then dealt with accordingly.The speed camera will have a picture of that car exceeding the speed limit, and the rental company will have a copy of the hire agreement confirming that you were responsible for the car at that time.
Unless you can prove that it was
- actually a different car that you hired or
- the speed camera is somehow inaccurate or
- somebody else was driving
The only unusual circumstance is that you haven't had that period of time that we usually get when opening the envelope where we mentally calculate whether or not we can "get out of it" and then privately come to terms with being caught before having to admit it.
paintman said:
What steps have you taken today to get qualified legal advice?
None yet, luckily as according to this thread I would be pissing into the wind Wooda80 said:
I appreciate that it must have come as a shock, but in hindsight having the "Failure to Disclose" charge withdrawn leaves them saying " So let me ask you again, was it you or someone else? " and it's then dealt with accordingly.
The speed camera will have a picture of that car exceeding the speed limit, and the rental company will have a copy of the hire agreement confirming that you were responsible for the car at that time.
Unless you can prove that it was
The only unusual circumstance is that you haven't had that period of time that we usually get when opening the envelope where we mentally calculate whether or not we can "get out of it" and then privately come to terms with being caught before having to admit it.
Again, from my point of view I am no expert and they have exploited my naivety. If I would have had warning about facing such a charge, I would have been appropriately advised and possibly assisted in court by a solicitor. I pleaded guilty without seeing a shred of evidence against me, knowing full well I had no defensive evidence to say otherwise, how/why would I? I didn't even know I would be up on a speeding offence that day....The speed camera will have a picture of that car exceeding the speed limit, and the rental company will have a copy of the hire agreement confirming that you were responsible for the car at that time.
Unless you can prove that it was
- actually a different car that you hired or
- the speed camera is somehow inaccurate or
- somebody else was driving
The only unusual circumstance is that you haven't had that period of time that we usually get when opening the envelope where we mentally calculate whether or not we can "get out of it" and then privately come to terms with being caught before having to admit it.
How do you know I am guilty? Not even I know I'm guilty? Pleading guilty with a gun to your head is different to pleading guilty because you are actually guilty
Tuvra said:
How do you know I am guilty? Not even I know I'm guilty? Pleading guilty with a gun to your head is different to pleading guilty because you are actually guilty
However, it is very likely that you are guilty. I'm very sympathetic, but this is what you might achieve...Contest it and get the whole thing set aside - not idea of the chances of this, will cost you money
Contest it and get it re-heard. Almost certainly guilty and a higher punishment, will cost you money
Contest it and end up with the same result, will cost you money.
Contact Andrew Thompson (Agtlaw), http://www.counsel.direct/ and get his view.
Bert
Tuvra said:
Again, from my point of view I am no expert and they have exploited my naivety. If I would have had warning about facing such a charge, I would have been appropriately advised and possibly assisted in court by a solicitor. I pleaded guilty without seeing a shred of evidence against me, knowing full well I had no defensive evidence to say otherwise, how/why would I? I didn't even know I would be up on a speeding offence that day....
How do you know I am guilty? Not even I know I'm guilty? Pleading guilty with a gun to your head is different to pleading guilty because you are actually guilty
Given you said this in your OP, I’m guessing that you’re bang to rights and quite why you’re getting upset is beyond meHow do you know I am guilty? Not even I know I'm guilty? Pleading guilty with a gun to your head is different to pleading guilty because you are actually guilty
tuvra said:
……I establish that it relates back to a speeding offence back in December again along the M4 (79mph in a 50mph) and the fact that I had not provided the driver details. I instantly remember the occasion because I had triggered the speed trap in a white BMW - a hire car……
I probably should have mentioned earlier - I went 79mph (apparently) through a variable speed camera that was set to 50mph, therefore:-
I suppose if the licence goes its the ideal opportunity to go travelling for a year
- Summoning on a 50mph road starts at 76mph, are the cameras accurate to within 3.9% at 11pm at night?
- Was there sufficient warning that the limit was 50mph and not 60mph which they sometimes are?
- If the camera was set to 60mph, which under the circumstances they should have been and I was caught doing 79mph It could have been dealt with by a FNP and your standard (£80 I think) fine.
- I'd assume the same would have happened if I was clocked doing 76mph
I suppose if the licence goes its the ideal opportunity to go travelling for a year
Gavia said:
Given you said this in your OP, I’m guessing that you’re bang to rights and quite why you’re getting upset is beyond me
Your quite right, however, its my poor explanation that's at fault there. I actually meant I remember the journey up to Manchester and back not actually going through a speed trap tuvra said:
……I establish that it relates back to a speeding offence back in December again along the M4 (79mph in a 50mph) and the fact that I had not provided the driver details. I instantly remember the occasion because I had triggered the speed trap in a white BMW - a hire car……
Tuvra said:
I probably should have mentioned earlier - I went 79mph (apparently) through a variable speed camera that was set to 50mph, therefore:-
I suppose if the licence goes its the ideal opportunity to go travelling for a year
I’m sorry, but this is going to sound harsh. You’re clutching at straws here. None of the four points you’ve raised are valid, they’re just guesswork on your part. - Summoning on a 50mph road starts at 76mph, are the cameras accurate to within 3.9% at 11pm at night?
- Was there sufficient warning that the limit was 50mph and not 60mph which they sometimes are?
- If the camera was set to 60mph, which under the circumstances they should have been and I was caught doing 79mph It could have been dealt with by a FNP and your standard (£80 I think) fine.
- I'd assume the same would have happened if I was clocked doing 76mph
I suppose if the licence goes its the ideal opportunity to go travelling for a year
Gavia said:
Given you said this in your OP, I’m guessing that you’re bang to rights and quite why you’re getting upset is beyond me
Your quite right, however, its my poor explanation that's at fault there. I actually meant I remember the journey up to Manchester and back not actually going through a speed trap tuvra said:
……I establish that it relates back to a speeding offence back in December again along the M4 (79mph in a 50mph) and the fact that I had not provided the driver details. I instantly remember the occasion because I had triggered the speed trap in a white BMW - a hire car……
The comment about averaging 68 is also a bit weak. If I go down there at 140 then crawl down at 20 in traffic, or just go at 30 on a clear motorway it doesn’t neutralise the first speeding offence. The fact that both speeds were committing an offence makes the argument even less valid.
Gavia said:
I’m sorry, but this is going to sound harsh. You’re clutching at straws here. None of the four points you’ve raised are valid, they’re just guesswork on your part.
The comment about averaging 68 is also a bit weak. If I go down there at 140 then crawl down at 20 in traffic, or just go at 30 on a clear motorway it doesn’t neutralise the first speeding offence. The fact that both speeds were committing an offence makes the argument even less valid.
It was tongue in cheek highlighting how I've got all this on me for averaging 68mph down a motorway which IMO should be 70mph anyway, don't worry, I appreciate that driving so recklessly endangered everyone in the world and I didn't even deserve a chance to defend myself The comment about averaging 68 is also a bit weak. If I go down there at 140 then crawl down at 20 in traffic, or just go at 30 on a clear motorway it doesn’t neutralise the first speeding offence. The fact that both speeds were committing an offence makes the argument even less valid.
Tuvra said:
It was tongue in cheek highlighting how I've got all this on me for averaging 68mph down a motorway which IMO should be 70mph anyway, don't worry, I appreciate that driving so recklessly endangered everyone in the world and I didn't even deserve a chance to defend myself
And you’ve got overly emotional. Being objective, it doesn’t matter what speed you consider to be safe, the speed limit is the limit and anything over that is risking a penalty. We all know and accept this when we speed. You’re not being done for any form of reckless, dangerous, lacking attention etc. You’re being done for a simple speeding offence.
You had a chance to defend yourself. You chose to plead guilty. A solicitor would have recommended you do that too based on what you’ve posted, unless you have very deep pockets and / or celebrity status. Even then there’s no guarantee.
I don’t see what your problem is. We all get caught at some point, but we get away with it more often than not.
Tuvra said:
I probably should have mentioned earlier - I went 79mph (apparently) through a variable speed camera that was set to 50mph, therefore:-
They don't get tired and they can see in the dark. They are far more accurate than that and are accurate enough to do what you challenge.- Summoning on a 50mph road starts at 76mph, are the cameras accurate to within 3.9% at 11pm at night?
Tuvra said:
*Was there sufficient warning that the limit was 50mph and not 60mph which they sometimes are?
Yes. The limit has to be illuminated for at least 1 minute before the camera is active after the speed limit signs change. The 1 minute period will not start until all speed limit signs are correctly displayed and recognized.
So at 1 minute at 79mph is 2119metres between you at 79mph and the sign changing with 1 minute of travel. You can see the sign value from at least 500m with reasonable eyesight.
Tuvra said:
*If the camera was set to 60mph, which under the circumstances they should have been and I was caught doing 79mph It could have been dealt with by a FNP and your standard (£80 I think) fine.
Yes but it was set at 50mph so this is not relevant.Why should it have been 60mph? Are you a traffic regulation magician?
Tuvra said:
*I'd assume the same would have happened if I was clocked doing 76mph
Perhaps.Tuvra said:
Basically, I have been fined £900 and been given 9 points (on a licence that had been clean for seven years) for averaging 68mph up a quiet M4, I feel it is incredibly harsh
Tell your MP.agtlaw said:
Points are effective from the offence date. If 6 points were imposed this week for an offence from 5 years ago [?] then you don’t need to worry.
The offence was from December last year, the five years relates to the address where all the correspondence was sent which was apparently that long ago that he lived there. I wonder if he’s still got this address on his driving licence and that’s what the hire car company gave on the S172. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff