PCN received today - advise needed
Discussion
I have today received a ticket stuck to the windscreen
Background is that I (or my company not sure which) rent a parking space from a local chap and have parked there almost daily in the same spare for nearly 13 years. The rent 5 is paid quarterly and I am not in arrears. 2 permits to be displayed in the windscreen were issued in 2010. One has faded long ago but remained on display in my car until March when I traded it in for a new car after 9 years. The other permit which was perfect is displayed in my new cars windscreen.
Over the last month or so I have been randomly (once or twice a week) parking my 17yo sons 1989 Golf as he is learning to drive so he drives to school and then I drive a mile down the road, park up and at 5pm drive up the road to school and he drives home. Mindful of the permit I photocopied it and displayed that in the golf simply because I can’t be arsed to unstick the permit from my car as required and what will happe is that one morning I will forget to move it and be permitless.
Pcn stuck to the windscreen today just after 2pm stating ‘ not displaying a valid permit’
So I am not sure how to respond. The space is essentially mine and paid for. I have parked other vehicles off and on with a photocopy permit as I only have 1 and I don’t display anything & the odd time I park my Caterham there as it has no windscreen !
Is the Pcn enforceable ? My son is the keeper and at 17 can he be taken to court if I decide not to pay the PC N ?
Background is that I (or my company not sure which) rent a parking space from a local chap and have parked there almost daily in the same spare for nearly 13 years. The rent 5 is paid quarterly and I am not in arrears. 2 permits to be displayed in the windscreen were issued in 2010. One has faded long ago but remained on display in my car until March when I traded it in for a new car after 9 years. The other permit which was perfect is displayed in my new cars windscreen.
Over the last month or so I have been randomly (once or twice a week) parking my 17yo sons 1989 Golf as he is learning to drive so he drives to school and then I drive a mile down the road, park up and at 5pm drive up the road to school and he drives home. Mindful of the permit I photocopied it and displayed that in the golf simply because I can’t be arsed to unstick the permit from my car as required and what will happe is that one morning I will forget to move it and be permitless.
Pcn stuck to the windscreen today just after 2pm stating ‘ not displaying a valid permit’
So I am not sure how to respond. The space is essentially mine and paid for. I have parked other vehicles off and on with a photocopy permit as I only have 1 and I don’t display anything & the odd time I park my Caterham there as it has no windscreen !
Is the Pcn enforceable ? My son is the keeper and at 17 can he be taken to court if I decide not to pay the PC N ?
Edited by Ziplobb on Friday 12th October 16:33
Ziplobb said:
I have today received a ticket stuck to the windscreen
Background is that I (or my company not sure which) rent a parking space from a local chap and hav3 parked there almost daily in the same spare for nearly 13 years. The rent 5 is paid quarterly and I am not in arrears. 2 permits to be displayed in the windscreen were issued in 2010. One has faded long ago but remained on display in my car until March when I traded it in for a new car after 9 years. The other permit which was perfect is displayed in my new cars windscreen.
Over the last month or so I have been randomly (once or twice a week) parking my 17yo sons 1989 Golf as he is learning to drive so he drives to school and th3n I drive a mile down the road, park up and at 5pm drive up the road to school and he drives home. Mindful of the permit I photocopied it and displayed that in the golf simply because I can’t be arsed to unstick the permit from my car as required.
Pcn stuck to hotheadedness windscreen today just after 2pm stating ‘ not displaying a valid permit’
So I am not sure how to respond. The space is essentially mine and paid for. I have parked other vehicles off and on with a photocopy permit as I only have 1 and I don’t display anything the odd time I park my Caterham there as it has no windscreen !
Is the Pcn enforceable ? My son is the keeper and at 17 can he be taken to court if I decide not to pay the PC N ?
It's a contract issue, if your contract and the parking space says you have to display a valid permit then I suppose it's enforceable but the details would need to be examined. Most parking agreements say that the permit has to be displayed and a photocopy won't suffice. It won't be a PCN it should just be called a charge notice AFAIK. Background is that I (or my company not sure which) rent a parking space from a local chap and hav3 parked there almost daily in the same spare for nearly 13 years. The rent 5 is paid quarterly and I am not in arrears. 2 permits to be displayed in the windscreen were issued in 2010. One has faded long ago but remained on display in my car until March when I traded it in for a new car after 9 years. The other permit which was perfect is displayed in my new cars windscreen.
Over the last month or so I have been randomly (once or twice a week) parking my 17yo sons 1989 Golf as he is learning to drive so he drives to school and th3n I drive a mile down the road, park up and at 5pm drive up the road to school and he drives home. Mindful of the permit I photocopied it and displayed that in the golf simply because I can’t be arsed to unstick the permit from my car as required.
Pcn stuck to hotheadedness windscreen today just after 2pm stating ‘ not displaying a valid permit’
So I am not sure how to respond. The space is essentially mine and paid for. I have parked other vehicles off and on with a photocopy permit as I only have 1 and I don’t display anything the odd time I park my Caterham there as it has no windscreen !
Is the Pcn enforceable ? My son is the keeper and at 17 can he be taken to court if I decide not to pay the PC N ?
As for the 17 year old unfortunately this went by the way about 5 years ago when judges decided that it was a "Contract of necessity" which under 18s can enter into.
Not being arsed to display the original permit will be your problem. Anybody could photocopy/photoshop an original to make it say what they want regardless of it being used legitimately or not. See what they say and check the detail of your parking contract to see if the permit must be original but it would appear to have been correctly issued.
Edited by shep1001 on Thursday 11th October 08:54
Ziplobb said:
I have today received a ticket stuck to the windscreen
Background is that I (or my company not sure which) rent a parking space from a local chap and hav3 parked there almost daily in the same spare for nearly 13 years. The rent 5 is paid quarterly and I am not in arrears. 2 permits to be displayed in the windscreen were issued in 2010. One has faded long ago but remained on display in my car until March when I traded it in for a new car after 9 years. The other permit which was perfect is displayed in my new cars windscreen.
Over the last month or so I have been randomly (once or twice a week) parking my 17yo sons 1989 Golf as he is learning to drive so he drives to school and th3n I drive a mile down the road, park up and at 5pm drive up the road to school and he drives home. Mindful of the permit I photocopied it and displayed that in the golf simply because I can’t be arsed to unstick the permit from my car as required.
Pcn stuck to hotheadedness windscreen today just after 2pm stating ‘ not displaying a valid permit’
So I am not sure how to respond. The space is essentially mine and paid for. I have parked other vehicles off and on with a photocopy permit as I only have 1 and I don’t display anything the odd time I park my Caterham there as it has no windscreen !
Is the Pcn enforceable ? My son is the keeper and at 17 can he be taken to court if I decide not to pay the PC N ?
I've highlighted the important bit.Background is that I (or my company not sure which) rent a parking space from a local chap and hav3 parked there almost daily in the same spare for nearly 13 years. The rent 5 is paid quarterly and I am not in arrears. 2 permits to be displayed in the windscreen were issued in 2010. One has faded long ago but remained on display in my car until March when I traded it in for a new car after 9 years. The other permit which was perfect is displayed in my new cars windscreen.
Over the last month or so I have been randomly (once or twice a week) parking my 17yo sons 1989 Golf as he is learning to drive so he drives to school and th3n I drive a mile down the road, park up and at 5pm drive up the road to school and he drives home. Mindful of the permit I photocopied it and displayed that in the golf simply because I can’t be arsed to unstick the permit from my car as required.
Pcn stuck to hotheadedness windscreen today just after 2pm stating ‘ not displaying a valid permit’
So I am not sure how to respond. The space is essentially mine and paid for. I have parked other vehicles off and on with a photocopy permit as I only have 1 and I don’t display anything the odd time I park my Caterham there as it has no windscreen !
Is the Pcn enforceable ? My son is the keeper and at 17 can he be taken to court if I decide not to pay the PC N ?
1) get on to pepipoo ASAP Private parking thread and start a new one
2) DO NOT IN ANY WAY contact the parking company until you see what pepipoo say, you may get a slam dunk on incoorect paperwork or procedure as these comapnies never learn
3) DO NOT IN ANY WAY disclose who was driving, refer to the person driving as THE DRIVER and the person whos name the car is registered to as THE REGISTERED KEEPER
4) DO NOT in any way make contact with the IAS
2) DO NOT IN ANY WAY contact the parking company until you see what pepipoo say, you may get a slam dunk on incoorect paperwork or procedure as these comapnies never learn
3) DO NOT IN ANY WAY disclose who was driving, refer to the person driving as THE DRIVER and the person whos name the car is registered to as THE REGISTERED KEEPER
4) DO NOT in any way make contact with the IAS
1) get on to pepipoo ASAP Private parking thread and start a new one
2) DO NOT IN ANY WAY contact the parking company until you see what pepipoo say, you may get a slam dunk on incoorect paperwork or procedure as these comapnies never learn
3) DO NOT IN ANY WAY disclose who was driving, refer to the person driving as THE DRIVER and the person whose name the car is registered to as THE REGISTERED KEEPER
4) DO NOT in any way make contact with the IAS
2) DO NOT IN ANY WAY contact the parking company until you see what pepipoo say, you may get a slam dunk on incoorect paperwork or procedure as these comapnies never learn
3) DO NOT IN ANY WAY disclose who was driving, refer to the person driving as THE DRIVER and the person whose name the car is registered to as THE REGISTERED KEEPER
4) DO NOT in any way make contact with the IAS
rsbmw said:
Why would you not just talk to the guy you rent the space off, I'm sure he'll have it cancelled.
apparently he cannot do that - the parking company involved are actually quite useless in policing the unauthorised parking. There are only 14 spoaces and they very rarely change hands in terms of who rents them. Maybe once every 2 years or so. Frequently there is unauthorised parking. A couple of years back there was a police car on my space and I had to go into McDonalds to ask one of the coppers to move the car ..Who is the parking company that has issued the ticket - I can give you an idea what they are like to deal with, and where they screw up with their paperwork compliance.
You can then let the owner know how toothless they are, and he may want to save himself some money and/or hassle.....
You can then let the owner know how toothless they are, and he may want to save himself some money and/or hassle.....
S11Steve said:
Who is the parking company that has issued the ticket - I can give you an idea what they are like to deal with, and where they screw up with their paperwork compliance.
You can then let the owner know how toothless they are, and he may want to save himself some money and/or hassle.....
thank you SteveYou can then let the owner know how toothless they are, and he may want to save himself some money and/or hassle.....
UK Car Park Management company no 07383860, PO Box 3114 Lancing BN15 5BR
Curiously enough, I got one of theirs cancelled today for a residents space in Southampton, but the managing agent was far more helpful than yours sounds....
UK CPM - Part of the IPC/IAS so the appeals process is a joke.
The notice to keeper isn't POFA compliant, but both they and the IAS will ignore that.
They have started issuing more court claims in the last 6 months or so, but anecdotally I understand they do not have a great success rate at court. It is an intimdatory tactic though - many people will pay the £180 rather than deal with the hassle of a court claim. They issued about 300 claims last year, they are close to a 1000 claims issued so far this year from approx 70,000 tickets issued.
They are quite active here in Sheffield, and I've done a few appeals for friends and colleagues. get the argument clear from the start, and it will end up with Debt Recovery Plus rather than the courts. DRP are toothless, give them the same appeal points that you will stick to and tell them to refer it back to their clients.
They are often served outside of the required timescales - ANPR detected has to be within 14 days, windscreen tickets between day 28 and 56. They have been getting better recently though, but check the date the windscreen ticket was issued against the date they sent the letter.
They do not state the period of parking, just a single time that it was observed - this fails POFA requirements
The wording on the paperwork doesn't state that they will hold the Keeper liable in accordance with POFA - another failure point.
The signage has been proven many times to be insufficient to either be noticed or clear/legible enough to form a contract with the driver - they have a few different signs in place for permit only sites, none of which stand up in
If you have any form of written contract with the car park provider, this will hold primacy over any sign that UKCPM stick on the wall - if it's an informal agreement then obviously don't mention it.
List these points in plain english as your appeal to UKCPM, and expect a rejection letter. You can send the same points to the IAS and that too will be rejected, but with two appeals recorded using solid points, there would be a huge risk if they pushed it into a court claim and they are embarrassed by the judge into paying costs for a case that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Similar points are recorded in this case that I had a little initial involvement in - https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2018/03/cou...
UK CPM - Part of the IPC/IAS so the appeals process is a joke.
The notice to keeper isn't POFA compliant, but both they and the IAS will ignore that.
They have started issuing more court claims in the last 6 months or so, but anecdotally I understand they do not have a great success rate at court. It is an intimdatory tactic though - many people will pay the £180 rather than deal with the hassle of a court claim. They issued about 300 claims last year, they are close to a 1000 claims issued so far this year from approx 70,000 tickets issued.
They are quite active here in Sheffield, and I've done a few appeals for friends and colleagues. get the argument clear from the start, and it will end up with Debt Recovery Plus rather than the courts. DRP are toothless, give them the same appeal points that you will stick to and tell them to refer it back to their clients.
They are often served outside of the required timescales - ANPR detected has to be within 14 days, windscreen tickets between day 28 and 56. They have been getting better recently though, but check the date the windscreen ticket was issued against the date they sent the letter.
They do not state the period of parking, just a single time that it was observed - this fails POFA requirements
The wording on the paperwork doesn't state that they will hold the Keeper liable in accordance with POFA - another failure point.
The signage has been proven many times to be insufficient to either be noticed or clear/legible enough to form a contract with the driver - they have a few different signs in place for permit only sites, none of which stand up in
If you have any form of written contract with the car park provider, this will hold primacy over any sign that UKCPM stick on the wall - if it's an informal agreement then obviously don't mention it.
List these points in plain english as your appeal to UKCPM, and expect a rejection letter. You can send the same points to the IAS and that too will be rejected, but with two appeals recorded using solid points, there would be a huge risk if they pushed it into a court claim and they are embarrassed by the judge into paying costs for a case that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Similar points are recorded in this case that I had a little initial involvement in - https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2018/03/cou...
S11Steve said:
Curiously enough, I got one of theirs cancelled today for a residents space in Southampton, but the managing agent was far more helpful than yours sounds....
UK CPM - Part of the IPC/IAS so the appeals process is a joke.
The notice to keeper isn't POFA compliant, but both they and the IAS will ignore that.
They have started issuing more court claims in the last 6 months or so, but anecdotally I understand they do not have a great success rate at court. It is an intimdatory tactic though - many people will pay the £180 rather than deal with the hassle of a court claim. They issued about 300 claims last year, they are close to a 1000 claims issued so far this year from approx 70,000 tickets issued.
They are quite active here in Sheffield, and I've done a few appeals for friends and colleagues. get the argument clear from the start, and it will end up with Debt Recovery Plus rather than the courts. DRP are toothless, give them the same appeal points that you will stick to and tell them to refer it back to their clients.
They are often served outside of the required timescales - ANPR detected has to be within 14 days, windscreen tickets between day 28 and 56. They have been getting better recently though, but check the date the windscreen ticket was issued against the date they sent the letter.
They do not state the period of parking, just a single time that it was observed - this fails POFA requirements
The wording on the paperwork doesn't state that they will hold the Keeper liable in accordance with POFA - another failure point.
The signage has been proven many times to be insufficient to either be noticed or clear/legible enough to form a contract with the driver - they have a few different signs in place for permit only sites, none of which stand up in
If you have any form of written contract with the car park provider, this will hold primacy over any sign that UKCPM stick on the wall - if it's an informal agreement then obviously don't mention it.
List these points in plain english as your appeal to UKCPM, and expect a rejection letter. You can send the same points to the IAS and that too will be rejected, but with two appeals recorded using solid points, there would be a huge risk if they pushed it into a court claim and they are embarrassed by the judge into paying costs for a case that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Similar points are recorded in this case that I had a little initial involvement in - https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2018/03/cou...
Excellent informationUK CPM - Part of the IPC/IAS so the appeals process is a joke.
The notice to keeper isn't POFA compliant, but both they and the IAS will ignore that.
They have started issuing more court claims in the last 6 months or so, but anecdotally I understand they do not have a great success rate at court. It is an intimdatory tactic though - many people will pay the £180 rather than deal with the hassle of a court claim. They issued about 300 claims last year, they are close to a 1000 claims issued so far this year from approx 70,000 tickets issued.
They are quite active here in Sheffield, and I've done a few appeals for friends and colleagues. get the argument clear from the start, and it will end up with Debt Recovery Plus rather than the courts. DRP are toothless, give them the same appeal points that you will stick to and tell them to refer it back to their clients.
They are often served outside of the required timescales - ANPR detected has to be within 14 days, windscreen tickets between day 28 and 56. They have been getting better recently though, but check the date the windscreen ticket was issued against the date they sent the letter.
They do not state the period of parking, just a single time that it was observed - this fails POFA requirements
The wording on the paperwork doesn't state that they will hold the Keeper liable in accordance with POFA - another failure point.
The signage has been proven many times to be insufficient to either be noticed or clear/legible enough to form a contract with the driver - they have a few different signs in place for permit only sites, none of which stand up in
If you have any form of written contract with the car park provider, this will hold primacy over any sign that UKCPM stick on the wall - if it's an informal agreement then obviously don't mention it.
List these points in plain english as your appeal to UKCPM, and expect a rejection letter. You can send the same points to the IAS and that too will be rejected, but with two appeals recorded using solid points, there would be a huge risk if they pushed it into a court claim and they are embarrassed by the judge into paying costs for a case that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Similar points are recorded in this case that I had a little initial involvement in - https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2018/03/cou...
Just so I am clear the appeal needs to go in after the NTK ?
The keeper is my son so ‘he’ handles this referring to the ‘driver’ as it could not have been him parking as he was at school ?
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