Handing back tennancy of Council owned bungalow
Discussion
I recently lost my mother and we had to go through the process of sorting out her council bungalow to that it could be handed back. We had a pre-termination inspection completed where they listed a number of things that we would be charged for if they were not corrected prior to handing back the keys.
For the main these were all straight forward - thinks like removing all of the carpets and lamp shades for example.
They said that due to picture hooks we would be charged £10/ room for remedial work tot he walls. Instead my brother and I filled any holes in the majority of the rooms - really good job I'll add, filling, sanding, the works. We left two rooms as to be honest there was a fair amount of work needed and we felt £10/room for these two were good value.
Then there was the good old "Deep clean". My mother was a smoker when she moved in, so really I'm not arguing against that.
The biggest issue we have is with a couple of old sheds at the bottom of the garden.
When my mum first went to look at the bungalow prior to taking it, we sae two dilapidated sheds at the bottom of the garden. One was in such a state there was no roof, the other was of poor quality and the door didn't open properly etc.
We all said to the council representative at the time that these were really poor condition, we queried if they were safe and asked that they be removed before she moved in. She was told no, if she wanted the bungalow she had to have the sheds too.
Only background needed here was my mum was in a 3 bedroom house at the time, she'd recently lost my dad and just wanted to be out of a house with so many memories. So she took the bungalow.
Fast forward 12 years and we are told that the house has now been inspected, that the sheds are in poor condition and that they need to be removed before the next tenants move in. However we, or rather my mum's estate would be expected to pay for this.
I immediately told them no, wasn't happening. If they were safe before she moved in then they are still safe now - she never used them. We also noted that there was electricity running to one of the sheds - I said I'd never seen a safety certificate for this, however if it was safe when my mum moved in then it'll still be safe now, again unused by my mum.
The response from the council so far is that as these were "gifted items" when she took on the tenancy, then these are her responsibility. And that now they are deemed unsafe she'll have to pay for their removal.
I'm standing my ground and have made it quite clear I will not be paying - when the itemised invoice arrives I'll be sending payment for the remedial wall work and the deep clean and not the shed removal.
I've been told I'll get an invoice within the next 2 weeks.
Now I don't know anything about "gifted items" but so far I've had nothing to confirm this was the case from the council. My mum was certainly never under any impression they were her responsibility - in fact many times over her time there she would remark what an eyesore they were and she must get around to calling the council to do something about them.
Realistically are the council likely to take this kind of thing "all the way"?
It has very much become a principle thing now and I really have no intention of paying for their renovations to the property before they pass it on to the next tenant. This stinks of a money grab - when my brother queried the whole thing during the inspection the council worker said to him "Why are you worried, you mother's estate will be paying".
I've played the unsafe card - telling them that if the sheds or electricity in them was unsafe, then why was my mother allowed to have tenancy and allow nieces and grandchildren to run around in her back garden.
All I'm getting in return are rather patronising letters implying I am just very emotional and that once I receive the final invoice I can appeal anything I don't feel I should be paying.
Am I in the wrong here? Morally and/or legally?
Obviously my late mother is no longer here to say she knew nothing of her responsibility for these sheds. But the council aren't showing me any proof she was aware anyway!
If I receive a final invoice that includes these charges and I "appeal" yet still get told I have to pay it, will the council see me in court if I only send them payment for all of the other work included?
For the main these were all straight forward - thinks like removing all of the carpets and lamp shades for example.
They said that due to picture hooks we would be charged £10/ room for remedial work tot he walls. Instead my brother and I filled any holes in the majority of the rooms - really good job I'll add, filling, sanding, the works. We left two rooms as to be honest there was a fair amount of work needed and we felt £10/room for these two were good value.
Then there was the good old "Deep clean". My mother was a smoker when she moved in, so really I'm not arguing against that.
The biggest issue we have is with a couple of old sheds at the bottom of the garden.
When my mum first went to look at the bungalow prior to taking it, we sae two dilapidated sheds at the bottom of the garden. One was in such a state there was no roof, the other was of poor quality and the door didn't open properly etc.
We all said to the council representative at the time that these were really poor condition, we queried if they were safe and asked that they be removed before she moved in. She was told no, if she wanted the bungalow she had to have the sheds too.
Only background needed here was my mum was in a 3 bedroom house at the time, she'd recently lost my dad and just wanted to be out of a house with so many memories. So she took the bungalow.
Fast forward 12 years and we are told that the house has now been inspected, that the sheds are in poor condition and that they need to be removed before the next tenants move in. However we, or rather my mum's estate would be expected to pay for this.
I immediately told them no, wasn't happening. If they were safe before she moved in then they are still safe now - she never used them. We also noted that there was electricity running to one of the sheds - I said I'd never seen a safety certificate for this, however if it was safe when my mum moved in then it'll still be safe now, again unused by my mum.
The response from the council so far is that as these were "gifted items" when she took on the tenancy, then these are her responsibility. And that now they are deemed unsafe she'll have to pay for their removal.
I'm standing my ground and have made it quite clear I will not be paying - when the itemised invoice arrives I'll be sending payment for the remedial wall work and the deep clean and not the shed removal.
I've been told I'll get an invoice within the next 2 weeks.
Now I don't know anything about "gifted items" but so far I've had nothing to confirm this was the case from the council. My mum was certainly never under any impression they were her responsibility - in fact many times over her time there she would remark what an eyesore they were and she must get around to calling the council to do something about them.
Realistically are the council likely to take this kind of thing "all the way"?
It has very much become a principle thing now and I really have no intention of paying for their renovations to the property before they pass it on to the next tenant. This stinks of a money grab - when my brother queried the whole thing during the inspection the council worker said to him "Why are you worried, you mother's estate will be paying".
I've played the unsafe card - telling them that if the sheds or electricity in them was unsafe, then why was my mother allowed to have tenancy and allow nieces and grandchildren to run around in her back garden.
All I'm getting in return are rather patronising letters implying I am just very emotional and that once I receive the final invoice I can appeal anything I don't feel I should be paying.
Am I in the wrong here? Morally and/or legally?
Obviously my late mother is no longer here to say she knew nothing of her responsibility for these sheds. But the council aren't showing me any proof she was aware anyway!
If I receive a final invoice that includes these charges and I "appeal" yet still get told I have to pay it, will the council see me in court if I only send them payment for all of the other work included?
So these are wooden sheds that were "dilapidated" a dozen years ago, haven't been touched in that time, and you think they're still guaranteed to be safe now because they were then?
I admire your optimism...
I think you're going to be on a loser with this. The sheds would have been bought by a previous tenant, so they are not the council's responsibility. If the council deemed them safe then, they would have been passed down to your mother's ownership. As they're no longer deemed safe, they're your responsibility to shift. (...and stir gently with a bit of "austerity")
Shouldn't take long to get shot of. A bloody good lean will probably flat pack 'em. And frankly if there's power to one of these piles of rotting wood... <eek> I assume there's somewhere you can easily get at the power at the house, to safely disconnect it?
I admire your optimism...
I think you're going to be on a loser with this. The sheds would have been bought by a previous tenant, so they are not the council's responsibility. If the council deemed them safe then, they would have been passed down to your mother's ownership. As they're no longer deemed safe, they're your responsibility to shift. (...and stir gently with a bit of "austerity")
Shouldn't take long to get shot of. A bloody good lean will probably flat pack 'em. And frankly if there's power to one of these piles of rotting wood... <eek> I assume there's somewhere you can easily get at the power at the house, to safely disconnect it?
We do void comtracts for multiple Councils, you wouldn’t believe the state some of the places are left in.
The Council should of been reponsible for them during your mothers tenure.
Was the electricity supply fixed by the Council, or the previous tenant ? If the latter, it should of either been removed before the let to your mother, or tested and certified. If the former, it should have been included in the yearly inspection.
Best of luck OP, it appears you’re trying to do the decent thing at a s
tty time, and they want to do the wrong thing.
[Edit] Notice you are in Huntingdon, if the property is run by the large housing group beginning with L, i may be able to help.
The Council should of been reponsible for them during your mothers tenure.
Was the electricity supply fixed by the Council, or the previous tenant ? If the latter, it should of either been removed before the let to your mother, or tested and certified. If the former, it should have been included in the yearly inspection.
Best of luck OP, it appears you’re trying to do the decent thing at a s
tty time, and they want to do the wrong thing.[Edit] Notice you are in Huntingdon, if the property is run by the large housing group beginning with L, i may be able to help.
Stoofa said:
I'm standing my ground and have made it quite clear I will not be paying -
Does your mother's estate have the money to pay - how much are we talking about here?I was pretty miffed to have to send my Mum's care home a cheque for £4,500 (from her estate) after she died as she'd been in hospital for the final 6 weeks. But it is what it is.
TooMany2cvs said:
So these are wooden sheds that were "dilapidated" a dozen years ago, haven't been touched in that time, and you think they're still guaranteed to be safe now because they were then?
I don't think he's saying that. I think the point is they were dilapidated 12 years ago, are even more dilapidated now, but at no time did they become the responsibility of his late Mum.Conveyancing or tenancy paperwork should show what happened, but I think getting a Councillor on side would be the best way to resolve it.
Ian
Thanks for the replies.
It's sometimes difficult to say exactly what I mean.
In my eyes, in my opinion, these sheds were in a really bad state when she moved in. At no point during any of that process did they say "And of course if you move in, those sheds are now your responsibility".
Because she was leaving a 3 bedroom, semi-detached they were in quite a rush to get her moved - with them wanting those kinds of properties for families.
In answer to a question earlier, at the moment I don't know the cost and yes, there is money in her estate to pay for it. For an easy, quiet life it would be a lot more simple to simply pay it. But that attitude of the council worker when he completed the inspection and the really patronising subsequent letters have really just put my back up.
And of course i just don't feel it is right.
Of course I have no proof of this, but what is to say the previous estate in front of my mum didn't have any money so the sheds were just left? Or maybe the previous estate was also charged for the work and it was never completed?
I felt the safety issue might sway them into stopping the process - I don't know who installed the electrics to the sheds, but they were certainly never inspected in all the time my mum was there.
In case anyone is interested, I will post an update once I've had the final invoice.
I actually feel like a bit of an ahole on one hand. Councils are strapped for cash, I know this - but to expect us to pay for the improvements on a property we're vacating just doesn't feel fair.
It's sometimes difficult to say exactly what I mean.
In my eyes, in my opinion, these sheds were in a really bad state when she moved in. At no point during any of that process did they say "And of course if you move in, those sheds are now your responsibility".
Because she was leaving a 3 bedroom, semi-detached they were in quite a rush to get her moved - with them wanting those kinds of properties for families.
In answer to a question earlier, at the moment I don't know the cost and yes, there is money in her estate to pay for it. For an easy, quiet life it would be a lot more simple to simply pay it. But that attitude of the council worker when he completed the inspection and the really patronising subsequent letters have really just put my back up.
And of course i just don't feel it is right.
Of course I have no proof of this, but what is to say the previous estate in front of my mum didn't have any money so the sheds were just left? Or maybe the previous estate was also charged for the work and it was never completed?
I felt the safety issue might sway them into stopping the process - I don't know who installed the electrics to the sheds, but they were certainly never inspected in all the time my mum was there.
In case anyone is interested, I will post an update once I've had the final invoice.
I actually feel like a bit of an ahole on one hand. Councils are strapped for cash, I know this - but to expect us to pay for the improvements on a property we're vacating just doesn't feel fair.
If the sheds pre-existed her tenancy then there is a strong case that they were not hers. As for them being some sort of gift to her, is there anything in writing to say as much.
TBH I'm a bit shocked with the tone they are taking to a bereaved estate, they're not being very sensitive in your time of grief, in fact i can hardly believe this is actually the council, sounds more like some greedy private landlord or one of those arrogant Housing Associations that took over many council properties.
Remember though that as executor you do not need to pay any creditors for at least a year from the date of death so your backstop would be to make them wait and wait for their money.
TBH I'm a bit shocked with the tone they are taking to a bereaved estate, they're not being very sensitive in your time of grief, in fact i can hardly believe this is actually the council, sounds more like some greedy private landlord or one of those arrogant Housing Associations that took over many council properties.
Remember though that as executor you do not need to pay any creditors for at least a year from the date of death so your backstop would be to make them wait and wait for their money.
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