"In charge of a motor vehicle" - student drivers
Discussion
Don't worry - this is not a thread about getting pissed and sleeping in your camper van! (And I hope it doesn't turn into that.)
I am currently training to become a driving instructor, and my instructor said something the other day that made me slightly puzzled. He said that if he wants to get out of the car and leave the student in the driving seat (perhaps to demonstrate blind spots, for example), he always takes the key off the student. His reasoning is that otherwise the student is left "in charge" of the vehicle.
But is that actually a problem? I'm not aware of there being an offence of being in charge of a motor vehicle without a full licence.
If there were such an offence, then it would presumably be illegal for any unlicensed person to sit in the driving seat with the key about their person. That's surely not the case, is it?
Is this instructor talking out of the wrong orifice, or am I woefully unaware of the law in this area?
In my experience, some instructors in various fields do indeed talk nonsense at times. I intend not to be one of them! Can anyone give a concrete reference to something that proves or disproves what my instructor is saying?
I would like to encourage students to practise various routines in between lessons by sitting in the car, engine off and key out, and run through the motions. This would be 100% fine sitting on a private driveway, but what if the car is parked on the road? Do I need to advise them to have a supervisor with them? Or perhaps advise that the key should be left indoors?
Of course, the chances of a police officer pouncing are virtually nil, but naturally I can't give advice that could technically put someone in trouble.
Any thoughts?
I am currently training to become a driving instructor, and my instructor said something the other day that made me slightly puzzled. He said that if he wants to get out of the car and leave the student in the driving seat (perhaps to demonstrate blind spots, for example), he always takes the key off the student. His reasoning is that otherwise the student is left "in charge" of the vehicle.
But is that actually a problem? I'm not aware of there being an offence of being in charge of a motor vehicle without a full licence.
If there were such an offence, then it would presumably be illegal for any unlicensed person to sit in the driving seat with the key about their person. That's surely not the case, is it?
Is this instructor talking out of the wrong orifice, or am I woefully unaware of the law in this area?
In my experience, some instructors in various fields do indeed talk nonsense at times. I intend not to be one of them! Can anyone give a concrete reference to something that proves or disproves what my instructor is saying?
I would like to encourage students to practise various routines in between lessons by sitting in the car, engine off and key out, and run through the motions. This would be 100% fine sitting on a private driveway, but what if the car is parked on the road? Do I need to advise them to have a supervisor with them? Or perhaps advise that the key should be left indoors?
Of course, the chances of a police officer pouncing are virtually nil, but naturally I can't give advice that could technically put someone in trouble.
Any thoughts?
Hopefully I can help - run a driving school and train PDI's.
Technically he is correct ,if a student is in a car with the car keys in the ignition and the supervisor gets out the student is in control without an appropriate supervisor, which results in no insurance too.
In real terms, i haven't heard of anybody being done but its the supervisors job to ensure the pupil is safe and in control, you cannot do this from the side of the road. You can't operate the dual controls and if the pupil panics and presses the accelerator, could you stop them? There is a brilliant video on a 2009 black fiesta ploughing through a wall, it was a learner!
Good luck on you PDI journey anyway, I can suggest joining a few of the ADI/PDI groups on facebook, I can DM you some if you like (strictly ADI's PDI's only)
Also may be worth while joining Lou Walsh's PDI group, she run's the big learner relay too
Technically he is correct ,if a student is in a car with the car keys in the ignition and the supervisor gets out the student is in control without an appropriate supervisor, which results in no insurance too.
In real terms, i haven't heard of anybody being done but its the supervisors job to ensure the pupil is safe and in control, you cannot do this from the side of the road. You can't operate the dual controls and if the pupil panics and presses the accelerator, could you stop them? There is a brilliant video on a 2009 black fiesta ploughing through a wall, it was a learner!
Good luck on you PDI journey anyway, I can suggest joining a few of the ADI/PDI groups on facebook, I can DM you some if you like (strictly ADI's PDI's only)
Also may be worth while joining Lou Walsh's PDI group, she run's the big learner relay too
Sheepshanks said:
I'm a bit gobsmacked that you don't see a problem with this, both legally and from a practical point of view.
In all fairness to the guy there are that many bad trainers and conflicting advice for practising driving instructors it's nice to see some people asking rather than sitting and nodding!Sheepshanks said:
I'm a bit gobsmacked that you don't see a problem with this, both legally and from a practical point of view.
What specific problem do you see with a learner sitting in a car, engine off and key out, running through the process of starting off and moving (but without actually starting the engine or moving)?Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
What specific problem do you see with a learner sitting in a car, engine off and key out, running through the process of starting off and moving (but without actually starting the engine or moving)?
1) It's against the law.2) You can't 100% trust them not to start the car. People are stupid.
strain said:
Technically he is correct ,if a student is in a car with the car keys in the ignition and the supervisor gets out the student is in control without an appropriate supervisor, which results in no insurance too.
Thanks for your constructive replies.Can you give me a reference to what offence is committed in the above case?
And by the way, I wouldn't be talking about the keys being in the ignition. I think I said "engine off and key out". The key to my question is the difference between "driving" (which is clearly not allowed without a supervisor) versus "in charge".
You see, the trouble is - if what you say is true, then any unlicensed person commits an offence if they sit in the driving seat with the key about their person, even if the engine and ignition are off. Can you give me a reference to that offence?
I take your point about insurance - but for my suggestion of the student sitting in their car at home that isn't an issue for my insurance.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
What specific problem do you see with a learner sitting in a car, engine off and key out, running through the process of starting off and moving (but without actually starting the engine or moving)?
Why would they do that? Even if they did they wouldn't need the key.I think the 'In charge' statement is a red herring, the issue would be if the learner is deemed to be driving.
( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/regul... )
Taking the key from them removes any argument that they were driving and seems to be a sensible idea.
Sheepshanks said:
1) It's against the law.
Reference please.Specifically in relation to being "in charge" rather than "driving". Obviously it's illegal for an unsupervised learner to be driving, but I'm not convinced about them merely sitting in the driving seat with the engine off and key out.
wgl2014 said:
Why would they do that? Even if they did they wouldn't need the key.
They would need the key to get into the car in the first place in my scenario of practising at home.Are they committing an offence by merely unlocking a car without supervision? That would seem preposterous.
As I hinted in my opening post, I could advise them to unlock the car, take the keys back into the house, and then go out and sit in the car to practise. But is that really necessary?
I don't know the exact legalities of it although I suspect technically it is illegal but the chances of getting caught or done are neglible.
But look at it this way, why would you want to put yourself in the position where your car, and your lively hood, is under the control of a 17 year old, that you probably don't know that well, and can't even drive yet, who could just drive off into the sunset? Lots of kudos and bonus points for turning up at chav central with a brand new car you've just nicked from the local driving school! It does happen!!
NEVER get out of the car, from driver or passenger side, without the keys in your hand. This is especially true if you are just changing seats. (Of course, prox keys bring a whole new set of problems!)
But look at it this way, why would you want to put yourself in the position where your car, and your lively hood, is under the control of a 17 year old, that you probably don't know that well, and can't even drive yet, who could just drive off into the sunset? Lots of kudos and bonus points for turning up at chav central with a brand new car you've just nicked from the local driving school! It does happen!!
NEVER get out of the car, from driver or passenger side, without the keys in your hand. This is especially true if you are just changing seats. (Of course, prox keys bring a whole new set of problems!)
strain said:
Good luck on you PDI journey anyway, I can suggest joining a few of the ADI/PDI groups on facebook, I can DM you some if you like (strictly ADI's PDI's only)
Yes please, if you have links to ADI/PDI forums that are a little more constructive than this place, that would be great! Edited to add: I can't DM you because your profile doesn't allow it, but you can DM me.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 1st November 11:31
NGee said:
I don't know the exact legalities of it although I suspect technically it is illegal but the chances of getting caught or done are neglible.
But look at it this way, why would you want to put yourself in the position where your car, and your lively hood, is under the control of a 17 year old, that you probably don't know that well, and can't even drive yet, who could just drive off into the sunset? Lots of kudos and bonus points for turning up at chav central with a brand new car you've just nicked from the local driving school! It does happen!!
NEVER get out of the car, from driver or passenger side, without the keys in your hand. This is especially true if you are just changing seats. (Of course, prox keys bring a whole new set of problems!)
Perhaps I should have emphasised that the real thrust of my question was about suggesting to students that they could practise at home in their own car (or mum & dad's) in between lessons.But look at it this way, why would you want to put yourself in the position where your car, and your lively hood, is under the control of a 17 year old, that you probably don't know that well, and can't even drive yet, who could just drive off into the sunset? Lots of kudos and bonus points for turning up at chav central with a brand new car you've just nicked from the local driving school! It does happen!!
NEVER get out of the car, from driver or passenger side, without the keys in your hand. This is especially true if you are just changing seats. (Of course, prox keys bring a whole new set of problems!)
I would indeed keep control of the key during lessons, but it was the implication of what the instructor said in relation to whether my suggested home practice would be legal. That is what I'm asking about.
To be clear, the following is the real point of my question...
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
I would like to encourage students to practise various routines in between lessons by sitting in the car, engine off and key out, and run through the motions. This would be 100% fine sitting on a private driveway, but what if the car is parked on the road? Do I need to advise them to have a supervisor with them? Or perhaps advise that the key should be left indoors?
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 1st November 11:36
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Thanks for your constructive replies.
Can you give me a reference to what offence is committed in the above case?
And by the way, I wouldn't be talking about the keys being in the ignition. I think I said "engine off and key out". The key to my question is the difference between "driving" (which is clearly not allowed without a supervisor) versus "in charge".
You see, the trouble is - if what you say is true, then any unlicensed person commits an offence if they sit in the driving seat with the key about their person, even if the engine and ignition are off. Can you give me a reference to that offence?
I take your point about insurance - but for my suggestion of the student sitting in their car at home that isn't an issue for my insurance.
Sure have a look at the requirements for learning to drive: https://www.gov.uk/driving-lessons-learning-to-dri...Can you give me a reference to what offence is committed in the above case?
And by the way, I wouldn't be talking about the keys being in the ignition. I think I said "engine off and key out". The key to my question is the difference between "driving" (which is clearly not allowed without a supervisor) versus "in charge".
You see, the trouble is - if what you say is true, then any unlicensed person commits an offence if they sit in the driving seat with the key about their person, even if the engine and ignition are off. Can you give me a reference to that offence?
I take your point about insurance - but for my suggestion of the student sitting in their car at home that isn't an issue for my insurance.
If no supervisor is in the car and they have keys then they will get 6 points.
strain said:
Sure have a look at the requirements for learning to drive: https://www.gov.uk/driving-lessons-learning-to-dri...
If no supervisor is in the car and they have keys then they will get 6 points.
That web site says (my emphasis added): "You can be fined up to £1,000 and get up to 6 penalty points on your provisional licence if you drive without the right supervision."If no supervisor is in the car and they have keys then they will get 6 points.
So I'm afraid you still haven't provided a reference that shows it's illegal to be "in charge" of a stationary vehicle, with the engine off and key out.
jamei303 said:
It is not set down in law that being in possession of a key and seated in the driver's seat is sufficient in itself to constitute being in charge.
I suspect it would be down to the court's decision and interpretation whether you were "in charge". Sitting in the driving seat with the key on you, gives you the ability to start and drive the car should you choose to do so - and my fear is whether there's a risk that a court might decide you were therefore "in charge".Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 1st November 11:46
'In charge' is very much a question of fact and degree and not necessarily black or white.
It's been found that whilst circumstances in each case are likely to vary wildly, the following should be taken into consideration when deciding whether someone was 'in charge' of a vehicle:
Even if through some bizarre set of circumstances they were found to be 'in charge', then as long as they were below the drink driving limit, I really don't see any issue.
It's been found that whilst circumstances in each case are likely to vary wildly, the following should be taken into consideration when deciding whether someone was 'in charge' of a vehicle:
- whether and where that person was in the vehicle or how far from it he was;
- what that person was doing at the relevant time;
- whether that person was in possession of a key that fitted the ignition;
- whether there was evidence of an intention of that person to assert control of the vehicle (by driving or otherwise);
- whether any person was in or near the vehicle and, if so, the like particulars in respect of that person;
Even if through some bizarre set of circumstances they were found to be 'in charge', then as long as they were below the drink driving limit, I really don't see any issue.
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