Redundancy Law - Working From Home

[Fireblade69]

Hi Chaps,

Can anyone offer advice as to whether a home-worker (computer, telephone & occasional visit to customer based job) can be separated from a pool simply on the basis of being based at home?

The company I work for are making redundancies and they have specified that one remote project manager's role is up for redundancy. The fact that there is only one person that does that (me) narrows the field a bit and the other two that do the same job as me but are based in the office are not in the line of fire. They also occasionally work from home but only I have the full office-at-home facilities including VPN, desk phone etc and there is no real difference in jobs.

Do I have a case to request that they fairly consider all of us in the same pool?

[barian]

I am not a lawyer, and ultimately you may need professional advice. However I can see no reason why you should not ask for an explanation of how the redundancy pool was determined. There may be valid reasons for singling out your role. For example, it might be that the costs of providing your remote working facilities would be saved. Even then, if you could and would work from the office you might be able to argue that it should be more widely drawn. If the homeworking arrangement was put in place because you have some disability, that might open up another area for challenge. In the first instance you might find it helpful to get some (free) advice from ACAS here: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2042

[BertBert]

If the roles are the same apart from their place of work, then I would think that the two office based ones not being included would be risky from the employers pov and open to challenge. I am no expert, just been advised by experts on doing such things over the years.

How you use it to your advantage though is a different matter. If the situation has been constructed to make you (and only you) redundant, then the employer may be thinking of a settlement agreement anyway and you can then use it in the negotiation perhaps.

Bert

[interstellar]

I agree that it looks unfair. Its worth asking why or if you want to stay see if being office based would change who is up for redundancy?

[ThorB]

barian said:

I am not a lawyer, and ultimately you may need professional advice. However I can see no reason why you should not ask for an explanation of how the redundancy pool was determined. There may be valid reasons for singling out your role. For example, it might be that the costs of providing your remote working facilities would be saved. Even then, if you could and would work from the office you might be able to argue that it should be more widely drawn. If the homeworking arrangement was put in place because you have some disability, that might open up another area for challenge. In the first instance you might find it helpful to get some (free) advice from ACAS here: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2042

I suspect the cost of providing an office desk would be considerably more than the OP's office at home. Rent, rates and service charge for offices are very expensive, and they still have to provide all the infrastructure at the office. I suspect they would be on very shaky ground if cost saving was the reason.

[Drumroll]

ThorB said:

I suspect the cost of providing an office desk would be considerably more than the OP's office at home. Rent, rates and service charge for offices are very expensive, and they still have to provide all the infrastructure at the office. I suspect they would be on very shaky ground if cost saving was the reason.

The other side to that is that unless they actually move office then the cost of rent,rates etc are the same regardless of if you have 5 or 10 staff in the office.

[BertBert]

Drumroll said:

The other side to that is that unless they actually move office then the cost of rent,rates etc are the same regardless of if you have 5 or 10 staff in the office.

But the home working is already established, so no additional cost or cost saving there.
Bert

[spikeyhead]

How can you manage a project from home?

[BertBert]

spikeyhead said:

How can you manage a project from home?

Why, do you think it can't be done? Seems fairly obvious to me.
Bert

[ThorB]

Drumroll said:

ThorB said:

I suspect the cost of providing an office desk would be considerably more than the OP's office at home. Rent, rates and service charge for offices are very expensive, and they still have to provide all the infrastructure at the office. I suspect they would be on very shaky ground if cost saving was the reason.

The other side to that is that unless they actually move office then the cost of rent,rates etc are the same regardless of if you have 5 or 10 staff in the office.

Lots of opportunities to save costs - office suites can be sub-divided and sub-let, leases can be surrendered and smaller suites taken, desks can be rented out. We’ve just negotiated a nice big premium from our Landlord for removing a break clause - paid for us to totally refurbish our office at significant cost.

However, that still doesn’t get away from the fact that the fixed costs of a desk in an office is significantly greater than that of someone working from home, where the employee is effectively paying the rent, rates, insurance, and maintenance out of their pay.

Good luck arguing that getting rid of homeworkers and not office staff saves more money.

[amstrange1]

BertBert said:

spikeyhead said:

How can you manage a project from home?

Why, do you think it can't be done? Seems fairly obvious to me.
Bert

Depends on the role surely? Bit hard to manage a construction project without ever setting boots on the ground for example.

[BertBert]

amstrange1 said:

BertBert said:

spikeyhead said:

How can you manage a project from home?

Why, do you think it can't be done? Seems fairly obvious to me.
Bert

Depends on the role surely? Bit hard to manage a construction project without ever setting boots on the ground for example.

Indeed but many project management roles can be done from home or any other location.
Bert

[Pica-Pica]

BertBert said:

amstrange1 said:

BertBert said:

spikeyhead said:

How can you manage a project from home?

Why, do you think it can't be done? Seems fairly obvious to me.
Bert

Depends on the role surely? Bit hard to manage a construction project without ever setting boots on the ground for example.

Indeed but many project management roles can be done from home or any other location.
Bert

Yes, even projects that are in another country or continent.

[lbc]

spikeyhead said:

How can you manage a project from home?

I used to work from home on various projects.

My manager lived in another country.

It wasn't a big issue.

I was offered voluntary redundancy and grabbed it.
I guess it depends how long you have worked for the company.

[Black_S3]

Fireblade69 said:

Hi Chaps,

Can anyone offer advice as to whether a home-worker (computer, telephone & occasional visit to customer based job) can be separated from a pool simply on the basis of being based at home?

The company I work for are making redundancies and they have specified that one remote project manager's role is up for redundancy. The fact that there is only one person that does that (me) narrows the field a bit and the other two that do the same job as me but are based in the office are not in the line of fire. They also occasionally work from home but only I have the full office-at-home facilities including VPN, desk phone etc and there is no real difference in jobs.

Do I have a case to request that they fairly consider all of us in the same pool?

It wouldn't be unreasonable to request being pooled with all the other managers if you are happy to accept working from the same location as the rest. ie if they made x job title in y office redundant but wanted to keep x job titles in x office... if that makes sense - home working is just a different office.

[BertBert]

Black_S3 said:

It wouldn't be unreasonable to request being pooled with all the other managers if you are happy to accept working from the same location as the rest. ie if they made x job title in y office redundant but wanted to keep x job titles in x office... if that makes sense - home working is just a different office.

I guess it depends on whether the location criteria for selecting the pool are 'valid' or whether they are contrived for the purposes of just having the OP in a pool of one. And then it depends on how the OP wants to deal with it. IE do they want to fight to keep their job or use it to negotiate a better redundancy package, or come back after with claim for possibly higher recompense.
Bert

[sbk1972]

I manage a team of Pms. I allow some WFH from home but there are times when times need to physically meet. Nothing beats a face to face, saves a ton of emails etc. However I have also had contract roles where Ive managed projects from home / afar.

Ive also been involved in a numerous transitions in / out. Personally, I would push for the best deal you can get whilst looking for a new role. Work life has two sides, the `politically correct` frontage, and the `behind doors real views`. You WFH has obviously pi55ed people off. I bet someone has asked "Do we need him ? " Out of sigh out of mind !!. Even if you argue then the relationship will be toxic, back office views will be saying your a pain and were right for redundancy in the first place.

Push for as much as you can, whilst looking for a new role.

You may not like this advice but I've done over 10 transitions now, and numerous Tupes.
SBK

[ozzuk]

The other possibility is they just want you out. It wouldn't be difficult to say they are changing the three roles down to two and office based only, and ask the three of you to apply. Very easy to get the result they want.

If that is a possibility, I'd kick up a fuss and try and get the best package possible.

[NDA]

ozzuk said:

The other possibility is they just want you out. .

This was my initial thought too. Remote workers quite quickly lose the company culture and become, well, remote. They can be seen as less valuable in a team because they're not present every day and their opinions count for less.

Not saying this is so in your case - but I have seen it happen several times.

Are you on the payroll as an employee? I assume you are as HMRC would consider you an employee - but was just curious.

[sbk1972]

ozzuk said:

The other possibility is they just want you out. It wouldn't be difficult to say they are changing the three roles down to two and office based only, and ask the three of you to apply. Very easy to get the result they want.

If that is a possibility, I'd kick up a fuss and try and get the best package possible.

Exactly.

I was in a meeting where a guy's career was represented by a picture of a stick man on a white board. "Do we need him?" was asked and many laughed. Made me realise a long time ago that HR / Tupe may have a PC front but hidden behind close doors peoples real views decide careers. Im not saying its fair or correct, just how it is.

I would imagine that being to WFH is a key factor in your role that you want / need ? Perhaps a young family or location where you live ? Chances of finding another role where you can WFH full time will be hard, hence why you're probably hoping to challenge this to then keep your role / WFH etc. Are there any other WFH roles in the same organisation ? If so why dont you counter offer by suggesting you do a different role ?

i would plan for the worst, look about for a new role, whilst pushing for the best deal.

Best of luck.