PCN from user error
Discussion
Hi all
I’ve been issued a PCN from parking in a railway car park. The operator is Indigo and I used their app to pay for a valid ticket
However, I selected the wrong registration from the list of vehicles I have stored in the app and so the parking attendant issued a PCN
Simple user error - yes
Fair cost of error - not the £60 they’re asking as the discounted charge and definitely not the £100 full PCN charge
They did not incur a loss from my useage of the car park and there was obviously no intent to avoid payment
The cars on my app have all been registered for months and I’ve previously bought tickets through the app for all of them - I’ve not retrospectively added them as a ruse to avoid this ticket
My initial appeal was refused
Please can anyone help here? I feel hard done by and would prefer not to pay £60/£100 for something as trivial as selecting the adjacent number plate on a drop down list on an iPhone screen
I’ve been issued a PCN from parking in a railway car park. The operator is Indigo and I used their app to pay for a valid ticket
However, I selected the wrong registration from the list of vehicles I have stored in the app and so the parking attendant issued a PCN
Simple user error - yes
Fair cost of error - not the £60 they’re asking as the discounted charge and definitely not the £100 full PCN charge
They did not incur a loss from my useage of the car park and there was obviously no intent to avoid payment
The cars on my app have all been registered for months and I’ve previously bought tickets through the app for all of them - I’ve not retrospectively added them as a ruse to avoid this ticket
My initial appeal was refused
Please can anyone help here? I feel hard done by and would prefer not to pay £60/£100 for something as trivial as selecting the adjacent number plate on a drop down list on an iPhone screen
I’d just bin it, although railway parking regulation is a little more complicated the chances of it being progressed to a court is very, very slim....once there with you being able to prove payment, albeit with an administrative error, the chances of anything happening are far slimmer tbh.
I’d just bin it and take the risk knowing that nothings going to happen. If it did i’d fight it later, knowing their own records will show what you’ve said has happened if you make a subject access request putting you in a fairly strong position...they just want the easy cash, not worth them fighting difficult cases for it
I’d just bin it and take the risk knowing that nothings going to happen. If it did i’d fight it later, knowing their own records will show what you’ve said has happened if you make a subject access request putting you in a fairly strong position...they just want the easy cash, not worth them fighting difficult cases for it
PurpleMoonlight said:
On what basis to you assess £60 is not a fair cost for the work you have caused them?
On what basis is it right that a private company can fine* an individual?OP paid for the parking. Presumably Indigo use ANPR, so it would be very easy to set up their system in such a way that it recognises when a paid car has not used a car park, and in that circumstance checks any paid registrations against other vehicles on the user's account and re-allocates the payment. I have only the faintest knowledge of coding and I could write a script to make that check. Draw your own conclusions as to why Indigo (and others) don't do that.
The true cost should be virtually nothing, and continuing to pursue someone when they have demonstrated that they have paid (which is easily traceable using their system) is completely indefensible.
(*before anyone 'corrects' me on the terminology, I believe it's better to call these things out for their purpose, rather than their legal status)
spikyone said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
On what basis to you assess £60 is not a fair cost for the work you have caused them?
On what basis is it right that a private company can fine* an individual?So, assuming the Op has 'only' burnt an hour of their administrators time in the overall investigation and appeal process and no postage, id say £20, thus far, if the industry worked on a time and materials basis.
Hol said:
I just did the quick maths for a £20k employee to have Ni, Pension and average office space and equipment, which comes out at £20 per hour in real time cost.
So, assuming the Op has 'only' burnt an hour of their administrators time in the overall investigation and appeal process and no postage, id say £20, thus far, if the industry worked on a time and materials basis.
What it costs them to fine someone is not the point. My question was, why is it right that a private company can fine an individual?So, assuming the Op has 'only' burnt an hour of their administrators time in the overall investigation and appeal process and no postage, id say £20, thus far, if the industry worked on a time and materials basis.
I notice you also didn't quote the bit where I said it doesn't need to cost them anything because they can check for this sort of "picked the wrong reg from my account" error using simple coding.
"Industry"...
It's a statutory penalty under Railway Byelaws, but as it issued by a private company it can not be enforced through civil courts. It has to go through Magistrates courts, and within 6 months of the of penalty being issued.
This almost never happens. The only time they will go to the effort is for persistent offenders, and even then it is the vehicle owner who is liable, not the driver. Which is a challenge when title of ownership belongs to a finance company.
I've had regular discussions with Indigo, as they claim that they can not transfer liability to the driver when tickets are issued against our vehicles, they then pass it to ZZPS, who then pass it to QDR/Wright Hassall Solicitors, each time I invite them to discuss it in front of a judge, but we both know that they can't bring the claim. They can't use POFA, as railway land is outside of the scope
I've suggested that if they want to collect their £60/£100 charge, I'll provide the hirer details and they can attempt to chase them for breach of contract, but then they argue that bye-laws over ride any contractual terms.
The legislation around railway car parks is a mess, and pretty safe to tell them to "do one" especially since you have paid them money to leave a vehicle there.
This almost never happens. The only time they will go to the effort is for persistent offenders, and even then it is the vehicle owner who is liable, not the driver. Which is a challenge when title of ownership belongs to a finance company.
I've had regular discussions with Indigo, as they claim that they can not transfer liability to the driver when tickets are issued against our vehicles, they then pass it to ZZPS, who then pass it to QDR/Wright Hassall Solicitors, each time I invite them to discuss it in front of a judge, but we both know that they can't bring the claim. They can't use POFA, as railway land is outside of the scope
I've suggested that if they want to collect their £60/£100 charge, I'll provide the hirer details and they can attempt to chase them for breach of contract, but then they argue that bye-laws over ride any contractual terms.
The legislation around railway car parks is a mess, and pretty safe to tell them to "do one" especially since you have paid them money to leave a vehicle there.
spikyone said:
Hol said:
I just did the quick maths for a £20k employee to have Ni, Pension and average office space and equipment, which comes out at £20 per hour in real time cost.
So, assuming the Op has 'only' burnt an hour of their administrators time in the overall investigation and appeal process and no postage, id say £20, thus far, if the industry worked on a time and materials basis.
What it costs them to fine someone is not the point. My question was, why is it right that a private company can fine an individual?So, assuming the Op has 'only' burnt an hour of their administrators time in the overall investigation and appeal process and no postage, id say £20, thus far, if the industry worked on a time and materials basis.
I notice you also didn't quote the bit where I said it doesn't need to cost them anything because they can check for this sort of "picked the wrong reg from my account" error using simple coding.
"Industry"...
PurpleMoonlight said:
On what basis to you assess £60 is not a fair cost for the work you have caused them?
Hence: £22 for an hours work.To answer your direct question around making sure people don't type in different number plate details than the car they are driving: - You can try to make something fool proof, but you can never make it idiot proof.
I'm now fairly sure that you probably know a lot more about that than the rest of us.
Edited by Hol on Thursday 14th February 14:21
And to save anyone else having to work out the cost to Indigo, it's a highly automated process.
£2.50 for the DVLA keeper request
£1 ish in stationery
£0.50 in postage.
R&D and overheads obviously aren't measurable against a single ticket.
Human intervention or involvement only comes into play after the documents are sent.
It's nothing more than a quasi-legal method of obtaining money under false pretences, and even the parking industry trade bodies acknowledge that the Railway Byelaw issue is a complete mess. But whilst people pay up without any legal justification to do so, they will continue to issue charges and bully people with false threats of legal action and debt enforcement for these byelaw penalties.
£2.50 for the DVLA keeper request
£1 ish in stationery
£0.50 in postage.
R&D and overheads obviously aren't measurable against a single ticket.
Human intervention or involvement only comes into play after the documents are sent.
It's nothing more than a quasi-legal method of obtaining money under false pretences, and even the parking industry trade bodies acknowledge that the Railway Byelaw issue is a complete mess. But whilst people pay up without any legal justification to do so, they will continue to issue charges and bully people with false threats of legal action and debt enforcement for these byelaw penalties.
ked up, end of.Hol said:
spikyone said:
Hol said:
I just did the quick maths for a £20k employee to have Ni, Pension and average office space and equipment, which comes out at £20 per hour in real time cost.
So, assuming the Op has 'only' burnt an hour of their administrators time in the overall investigation and appeal process and no postage, id say £20, thus far, if the industry worked on a time and materials basis.
What it costs them to fine someone is not the point. My question was, why is it right that a private company can fine an individual?So, assuming the Op has 'only' burnt an hour of their administrators time in the overall investigation and appeal process and no postage, id say £20, thus far, if the industry worked on a time and materials basis.
I notice you also didn't quote the bit where I said it doesn't need to cost them anything because they can check for this sort of "picked the wrong reg from my account" error using simple coding.
"Industry"...
PurpleMoonlight said:
On what basis to you assess £60 is not a fair cost for the work you have caused them?
Hence: £22 for an hours work.To answer your direct question around making sure people don't type in different number plate details than the car they are driving: - You can try to make something fool proof, but you can never make it idiot proof.
I'm now fairly sure that you probably know a lot more about that than the rest of us.
Edited by Hol on Thursday 14th February 14:21
On the point you were apparently making before resorting to needless insults, there are plenty of ANPR systems that actually prevent users paying for a car that is not in the car park. They are entirely foolproof and idiot proof. A simple post hoc quality check could pick up when a user has paid for a car that never entered the car park.
Why do Indigo make a user specify which car is parked anyway, if multiple cars are attached to the account? A user can only drive one car at a time, so the system could automatically allocate payment to whichever car is parked.
Your Dad said:
S11Steve said:
The legislation around railway car parks is a mess
Does that mean I can keep parking in the unmarked spaces by the 1st Class car park at Chesterfield station when collecting tickets or family members? 
spikyone said:
On the point you were apparently making before resorting to needless insults, there are plenty of ANPR systems that actually prevent users paying for a car that is not in the car park. .
Firstly, I think you need to go back and see who threw the first insult.Secondly, which part of '' I clearly wasn't answering your totally separate point, I was actually answering the question you deliberately quoted'' confuses you to somehow think the following chain relates to ANPR??
Original direct question:
PurpleMoonlight said:
On what basis to you assess £60 is not a fair cost for the work you have caused them?
The quoted part of your response as it relates to that original question and deliberately excluding the totally separate point/question around ANPR:spikyone said:
On what basis is it right that a private company can fine* an individual?
My response to the original question.Hol said:
I just did the quick maths for a £20k employee to have Ni, Pension and average office space and equipment, which comes out at £20 per hour in real time cost.
So, assuming the Op has 'only' burnt an hour of their administrators time in the overall investigation and appeal process and no postage, id say £20, thus far, if the industry worked on a time and materials basis.
I really am struggle where I have said anything about ANPR.So, assuming the Op has 'only' burnt an hour of their administrators time in the overall investigation and appeal process and no postage, id say £20, thus far, if the industry worked on a time and materials basis.
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