Power of Attorney rigmarole
Discussion
My mum is ninety and in very poor health. She has given my brother and me power of attorney over her financial affairs. As it stands, having the power of attorney is one thing, exercising the power is another thing altogether. Her care costs are high and we needed to free up some more money. Mum managed to sign letters to two Building Societies but I think this will be last time she will be able. Speaking to one of the Building Societies on the phone we were tipped off about there being more than one account. We can find nothing to suggest there was more than the account just surrendered and the building society can't tell us more because of Data Protection. I said we have power of attorney. They said we have to send it to them with three proofs of identity. Imagining that very soon we will have to do quite a lot of this with different institutions, I asked if they needed the originals. If we don't send originals we can send authenticated copies. Authenticated? By a solicitor, a notary, a doctor, a minister of religion, a bank or building society official, a councillor, a dentist, a chartered accountant, a teacher or a lecturer. A dentist? Would you give our solicitor the information? If they have power of attorney. How would they prove it? The same way.
Is that right? Is this why wrapping up an estate is so expensive? Even the lawyers appointed by the estate have to do a little dance and sing a little song with each financial institution because they don't trust anyone?
Would it be better to wait until mum dies and give the whole sorry mess to the solicitor or do we start proving we have power of attorney to all and sundry and live with the inconvenience or is there another way entirely?
Is that right? Is this why wrapping up an estate is so expensive? Even the lawyers appointed by the estate have to do a little dance and sing a little song with each financial institution because they don't trust anyone?
Would it be better to wait until mum dies and give the whole sorry mess to the solicitor or do we start proving we have power of attorney to all and sundry and live with the inconvenience or is there another way entirely?
DickyC said:
My mum is ninety and in very poor health. She has given my brother and me power of attorney over her financial affairs. As it stands, having the power of attorney is one thing, exercising the power is another thing altogether. Her care costs are high and we needed to free up some more money. Mum managed to sign letters to two Building Societies but I think this will be last time she will be able. Speaking to one of the Building Societies on the phone we were tipped off about there being more than one account. We can find nothing to suggest there was more than the account just surrendered and the building society can't tell us more because of Data Protection. I said we have power of attorney. They said we have to send it to them with three proofs of identity. Imagining that very soon we will have to do quite a lot of this with different institutions, I asked if they needed the originals. If we don't send originals we can send authenticated copies. Authenticated? By a solicitor, a notary, a doctor, a minister of religion, a bank or building society official, a councillor, a dentist, a chartered accountant, a teacher or a lecturer. A dentist? Would you give our solicitor the information? If they have power of attorney. How would they prove it? The same way.
Is that right? Is this why wrapping up an estate is so expensive? Even the lawyers appointed by the estate have to do a little dance and sing a little song with each financial institution because they don't trust anyone?
Would it be better to wait until mum dies and give the whole sorry mess to the solicitor or do we start proving we have power of attorney to all and sundry and live with the inconvenience or is there another way entirely?
I think the question to ask yourself is why should they let one person have control over another's money, which they are responsible for keeping safely, unless they have proper proof that the person has proper authority to do so. Is that right? Is this why wrapping up an estate is so expensive? Even the lawyers appointed by the estate have to do a little dance and sing a little song with each financial institution because they don't trust anyone?
Would it be better to wait until mum dies and give the whole sorry mess to the solicitor or do we start proving we have power of attorney to all and sundry and live with the inconvenience or is there another way entirely?
The reality is any institution that you want to deal with as attorney will need a properly certified copy of the LPA before they let you loose. And (without wanting to add to your pain!) what the first B Soc has told you about who can certify is wrong - an LPA can only properly be certified by a solicitor or certain other legal professionals or a stockbroker, and they have to do it in a certain way. The requirements are in section 3 of the Powers of Attorney Act 1971 and make LPAs a special case in this regard - the general rule for most documents is that the certification can take whatever form the person asking for it will accept (which might include doctors, members of the clergy etc).
You should be able to make an appointment to take the original to a local solicitors and have some certified copies made. They'll charge you a few quid for each copy but there isn't really an alternative for most people.
was8v said:
huh?
You don't have to use a solicitor to wrap up an estate. The information is all there in the open, no need to pay them much.
Absolutely correct, but that's not the point - the OP wants to use the LP to manage things whilst the donor is alive. When they die, all power under the LPA will cease anyway.You don't have to use a solicitor to wrap up an estate. The information is all there in the open, no need to pay them much.
OP, to be clear, to get copies certified you don't need to engage a solicitor to act for you/mum - it's usually a cash service which shouldn't cost too much for the copies (but there's no set rate). You can have copies of your ID certified at the same time (but check if the relevant banks/B socs have any particular requirement for wording of the ID certifications before you leave)
DickyC said:
My mum is ninety and in very poor health. She has given my brother and me power of attorney over her financial affairs. As it stands, having the power of attorney is one thing, exercising the power is another thing altogether. Her care costs are high and we needed to free up some more money. Mum managed to sign letters to two Building Societies but I think this will be last time she will be able. Speaking to one of the Building Societies on the phone we were tipped off about there being more than one account. We can find nothing to suggest there was more than the account just surrendered and the building society can't tell us more because of Data Protection. I said we have power of attorney. They said we have to send it to them with three proofs of identity. Imagining that very soon we will have to do quite a lot of this with different institutions, I asked if they needed the originals. If we don't send originals we can send authenticated copies. Authenticated? By a solicitor, a notary, a doctor, a minister of religion, a bank or building society official, a councillor, a dentist, a chartered accountant, a teacher or a lecturer. A dentist? Would you give our solicitor the information? If they have power of attorney. How would they prove it? The same way.
Is that right? Is this why wrapping up an estate is so expensive? Even the lawyers appointed by the estate have to do a little dance and sing a little song with each financial institution because they don't trust anyone?
Would it be better to wait until mum dies and give the whole sorry mess to the solicitor or do we start proving we have power of attorney to all and sundry and live with the inconvenience or is there another way entirely?
Have you registered the LPA with the OPG yet ? If not then you'll not get anywhere until you do. Note that it also takes ages. My mum died while waiting for OPG to respond and they kept the 80 odd quid as well !Is that right? Is this why wrapping up an estate is so expensive? Even the lawyers appointed by the estate have to do a little dance and sing a little song with each financial institution because they don't trust anyone?
Would it be better to wait until mum dies and give the whole sorry mess to the solicitor or do we start proving we have power of attorney to all and sundry and live with the inconvenience or is there another way entirely?
bladebloke said:
I think the question to ask yourself is why should they let one person have control over another's money, which they are responsible for keeping safely, unless they have proper proof that the person has proper authority to do so.
The reality is any institution that you want to deal with as attorney will need a properly certified copy of the LPA before they let you loose. And (without wanting to add to your pain!) what the first B Soc has told you about who can certify is wrong - an LPA can only properly be certified by a solicitor or certain other legal professionals or a stockbroker, and they have to do it in a certain way. The requirements are in section 3 of the Powers of Attorney Act 1971 and make LPAs a special case in this regard - the general rule for most documents is that the certification can take whatever form the person asking for it will accept (which might include doctors, members of the clergy etc).
You should be able to make an appointment to take the original to a local solicitors and have some certified copies made. They'll charge you a few quid for each copy but there isn't really an alternative for most people.
The girl reciting the list of professions eligible to authenticate the copies went as far as Postman before I could stop her. It was dentist I tripped up on though. I know a very dodgy dentist. I'd trust him with my teeth but not much more.The reality is any institution that you want to deal with as attorney will need a properly certified copy of the LPA before they let you loose. And (without wanting to add to your pain!) what the first B Soc has told you about who can certify is wrong - an LPA can only properly be certified by a solicitor or certain other legal professionals or a stockbroker, and they have to do it in a certain way. The requirements are in section 3 of the Powers of Attorney Act 1971 and make LPAs a special case in this regard - the general rule for most documents is that the certification can take whatever form the person asking for it will accept (which might include doctors, members of the clergy etc).
You should be able to make an appointment to take the original to a local solicitors and have some certified copies made. They'll charge you a few quid for each copy but there isn't really an alternative for most people.
Reading the replies I see the way to speed the process is to have copies made and to prepare packs of documents ready to send. That would take the drudgery out of it. I'd imagined endless conversations establishing my credentials but sending them everything they're likely to need would oil the wheels.
Byker28i said:
I just went into the bank/building society and did it all with an appointment. Took about an hour each time, mainly because Halifax lady was very chatty.
If you are running the accounts, make sure you document everything, keep a spreadsheet of expenditure
It wasn't a LPA but I've done similar, seemed a lot easier to go in, passport and other forms of ID, paperwork, sit in office, they make a copy and the member certified it as a copy of an original (or words along those lines). You leave with the originals. If you are running the accounts, make sure you document everything, keep a spreadsheet of expenditure
was8v said:
You don't have to use a solicitor to wrap up an estate. The information is all there in the open, no need to pay them much.
It's kind of you but I think you're overestimating my abilities. Maybe I could do it, but I would be so slow. No, I'll write to her equally elderly relatives and friends and cancel her legions of subscriptions and let the lawyer get on with it. vonhosen said:
To get them registered with OPG you can, but they are talking about once you need to invoke the Power with financial institutions etc.
Part way through my ordeal with the building society I asked if there was a central database of those with the power attorney they could refer to. The young lady was quite short with me.DickyC said:
vonhosen said:
To get them registered with OPG you can, but they are talking about once you need to invoke the Power with financial institutions etc.
Part way through my ordeal with the building society I asked if there was a central database of those with the power attorney they could refer to. The young lady was quite short with me.It's just they want you to present the original document that was lodged with the OPG & returned to you by the OPG, or a certified copy (certified in a manner that satisfies their individual particular foibles).
My wife went through this 3 years ago.
her mother had a massive stoke and as a result signed everything over to my wife (her daughter) as power of attorney. The completion of documents and getting the official PA documents was the easy bit.
It was the then few weeks work and appointments to get all her details onto all accounts etc. Some where really good other where a joke, 3 mobile being the worst.
For the bank she just made an appointment went in with all the documents and it was sorted there and then. No problems. Bank was barclays and where very good she says,
her mother had a massive stoke and as a result signed everything over to my wife (her daughter) as power of attorney. The completion of documents and getting the official PA documents was the easy bit.
It was the then few weeks work and appointments to get all her details onto all accounts etc. Some where really good other where a joke, 3 mobile being the worst.
For the bank she just made an appointment went in with all the documents and it was sorted there and then. No problems. Bank was barclays and where very good she says,
vonhosen said:
The Central register is the OPG.
It's just they want you to present the original document that was lodged with the OPG & returned to you by the OPG, or a certified copy (certified in a manner that satisfies their individual particular foibles).
No, as per the above, LPAs are one of the few situations where law prescribes how they need to be certified. Banks' foibles are thus avoided (but unfortunately the same won't be true for certified copies of ID they ask for It's just they want you to present the original document that was lodged with the OPG & returned to you by the OPG, or a certified copy (certified in a manner that satisfies their individual particular foibles).
)If I'm reading the responses correctly, mum gave us power of attorney for circumstances that didn't arise. Until recently, despite poor health, she could and did keep hold of the reins. Now that she is becoming incapable, and we are beginning to learn of the difficulties that go with the power of attorney, it might be better to leave things as they stand and not try to take over her affairs until she dies. I should point out she is perfectly reconciled to her death. She was given five or six weeks to live nearly six moths ago but is now very poorly indeed.
Don't worry about paying to get copies. Take the originals into the building society branch - the staff there can take a copy and certify it for their internal use and give you back the originals. Just remember to take your ID docs with you.
You'll only need to actually send off copies if any of the institution s you're dealing with don't have a local branch you can go to.
You'll only need to actually send off copies if any of the institution s you're dealing with don't have a local branch you can go to.
wwpaddler said:
Don't worry about paying to get copies. Take the originals into the building society branch - the staff there can take a copy and certify it for their internal use and give you back the originals. Just remember to take your ID docs with you.
You'll only need to actually send off copies if any of the institution s you're dealing with don't have a local branch you can go to.
Thanks. If it was one or two building societies I would do just that. However, dad was a great believer in not putting all their eggs in one basket and there is money, in various forms, dotted about all over the show. The one that interests my brother and me is the West Brom who volunteered that mum has more than one account but were unable to explain more because of Data Protection. We have nothing to suggest she had more than the one account we closed. I could well toddle up to there with my bona fides and see what's what.You'll only need to actually send off copies if any of the institution s you're dealing with don't have a local branch you can go to.
arfur said:
Have you registered the LPA with the OPG yet ? If not then you'll not get anywhere until you do. Note that it also takes ages. My mum died while waiting for OPG to respond and they kept the 80 odd quid as well !
My mum died while waiting for the OPG to respond and they are refunding the fees (£84(?) × 2) to the Executor. The LPAs have been returned marked "Cancelled".Have you asked for a refund?
DickyC said:
bladebloke said:
I think the question to ask yourself is why should they let one person have control over another's money, which they are responsible for keeping safely, unless they have proper proof that the person has proper authority to do so.
The reality is any institution that you want to deal with as attorney will need a properly certified copy of the LPA before they let you loose. And (without wanting to add to your pain!) what the first B Soc has told you about who can certify is wrong - an LPA can only properly be certified by a solicitor or certain other legal professionals or a stockbroker, and they have to do it in a certain way. The requirements are in section 3 of the Powers of Attorney Act 1971 and make LPAs a special case in this regard - the general rule for most documents is that the certification can take whatever form the person asking for it will accept (which might include doctors, members of the clergy etc).
You should be able to make an appointment to take the original to a local solicitors and have some certified copies made. They'll charge you a few quid for each copy but there isn't really an alternative for most people.
The girl reciting the list of professions eligible to authenticate the copies went as far as Postman before I could stop her. It was dentist I tripped up on though. I know a very dodgy dentist. I'd trust him with my teeth but not much more.The reality is any institution that you want to deal with as attorney will need a properly certified copy of the LPA before they let you loose. And (without wanting to add to your pain!) what the first B Soc has told you about who can certify is wrong - an LPA can only properly be certified by a solicitor or certain other legal professionals or a stockbroker, and they have to do it in a certain way. The requirements are in section 3 of the Powers of Attorney Act 1971 and make LPAs a special case in this regard - the general rule for most documents is that the certification can take whatever form the person asking for it will accept (which might include doctors, members of the clergy etc).
You should be able to make an appointment to take the original to a local solicitors and have some certified copies made. They'll charge you a few quid for each copy but there isn't really an alternative for most people.
Reading the replies I see the way to speed the process is to have copies made and to prepare packs of documents ready to send. That would take the drudgery out of it. I'd imagined endless conversations establishing my credentials but sending them everything they're likely to need would oil the wheels.
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