What's the likely outcome ?
Discussion
We employed a mobile engineer based in South Yorks at the end of last year. The role requires a lot of driving covering sites on the east side of the UK from the midlands to Newcastle.
After a couple of months of basic training, he was supplied with a company vehicle and sent on his way.
He arrived here with a clean licence. Since February of this year, he has acquired 9 points through three speeding offences. In each instance, he was just outside of the ACPO suggested 10%+2 threshold. He assured us of monk like driving in the future.
This morning, what should arrive on my desk but another NIP from Northumberland's finest for 58 in a 50. FFS
What is the likely outcome of 12 points totted up ?
Evidently, his continued employment requires a driving licence. A lengthy ban could put his position here in jeopardy. No job for him = problems paying mortgage etc etc. No employee for us = having to invest a not inconsiderable amount of money finding and training another engineer. In addition, the loss of revenue whilst we cannot undertake work in that area would be significant.
I know and he knows he shouldn't speed. But somehow, the ultimate punishment seem mighty excessive for the 'crimes' committed.
After a couple of months of basic training, he was supplied with a company vehicle and sent on his way.
He arrived here with a clean licence. Since February of this year, he has acquired 9 points through three speeding offences. In each instance, he was just outside of the ACPO suggested 10%+2 threshold. He assured us of monk like driving in the future.
This morning, what should arrive on my desk but another NIP from Northumberland's finest for 58 in a 50. FFS
What is the likely outcome of 12 points totted up ?
Evidently, his continued employment requires a driving licence. A lengthy ban could put his position here in jeopardy. No job for him = problems paying mortgage etc etc. No employee for us = having to invest a not inconsiderable amount of money finding and training another engineer. In addition, the loss of revenue whilst we cannot undertake work in that area would be significant.
I know and he knows he shouldn't speed. But somehow, the ultimate punishment seem mighty excessive for the 'crimes' committed.
The standard outcome is that he will receive a 6 month ban under the "totting up" rules, UNLESS he can persuade a magistrate that there are special reasons not to disqualify.
From what you've said, i.e. minor infingements, the effects of a loss of job etc... he stands a good chance of keeping his licence. My advice - see a solicitor that specialises in motoring cases.
>> Edited by xxplod on Friday 20th May 09:57
From what you've said, i.e. minor infingements, the effects of a loss of job etc... he stands a good chance of keeping his licence. My advice - see a solicitor that specialises in motoring cases.
>> Edited by xxplod on Friday 20th May 09:57
xxplod said:
The standard outcome is that he will receive a 6 month ban under the "totting up" rules, UNLESS he can persuade a magistrate that there are special reasons not to disqualify.
6 months...ouch. A couple of weeks we could cope with, possibly even a month. But 6 months, no chance.
xxplod said:
From what you've said, i.e. minor infingements, the effects of a loss of job etc... he stands a good chance of keeping his licence. My advice - see a solicitor that specialises in motoring cases.
So, not unreasonable to hope for leniency with, say, a speed awareness course in lieu of the points.
BliarOut said:
And write to your MP stating the impact on your business that trivial speeding offences are having
If I really thought that course of action would have any response other than my letter being filed in the bin then I'd be on it in a flash.
Jewhoo said:
Challenge the Northumberland one. They tried to do me for 50 in a 40 when I wasn't going 50. There have been a whole load of incorrect tickets issued recently.
Interesting.
Under what grounds specifically was it thrown out ?? >> Edited by sotonS2 on Friday 20th May 10:26
Mine was thrown out because I wrote tehm a letter saying I wasn't speeding, they didn't reply.
The rest of them (large local newspaper story) where thrown out because the civilian operators incorrectly interpreted the evidence presented. ie they didn't have an effin clue. A coucil van got pinged for 60+ in a 50 despite the tacho saying 36. There were many like this.
The rest of them (large local newspaper story) where thrown out because the civilian operators incorrectly interpreted the evidence presented. ie they didn't have an effin clue. A coucil van got pinged for 60+ in a 50 despite the tacho saying 36. There were many like this.
Jewhoo said:
Mine was thrown out because I wrote tehm a letter saying I wasn't speeding, they didn't reply.
The rest of them (large local newspaper story) where thrown out because the civilian operators incorrectly interpreted the evidence presented. ie they didn't have an effin clue. A coucil van got pinged for 60+ in a 50 despite the tacho saying 36. There were many like this.
Its likely that any such 'loophole' has long been closed but may be worth a go.
I think though that the most sensible approach would be for him to appoint a solicitor as advised and go for the 'Extreme Hardship' plea.
I have been told that in these cases, the full 12 points are valid for 4 years, as opposed to the normal 3 years and that this plea is a once and once only deal. Is this correct ?
In an ideal world, they would give him the option to attend a speed awareness course, liberate him of £60 and not endorse his licence.
sotons2 said:
having to invest a not inconsiderable amount of money finding and training another engineer.
and if by some chance he keeps his licence get him some driver training, cheaper in the long run.....
might be worth doing if you have a big fleet, pays for itself in reduced insurance costs.
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Friday 20th May 13:21
Flat in Fifth said:
and if by some chance he keeps his licence get him some driver training, cheaper in the long run.....
might be worth doing if you have a big fleet, pays for itself in reduced insurance costs.
I was thinking more along the lines of sending him on a trip to SpecSavers....
We're small. We've only got 7 engineers covering the whole of the UK - that's why a ban would hit us so hard.
And the others share 6 points between the lot of them - not bad considering they each do 40,000-50,000 miles per year.
Jewhoo said:
Mine was thrown out because I wrote tehm a letter saying I wasn't speeding, they didn't reply.
The rest of them (large local newspaper story) where thrown out because the civilian operators incorrectly interpreted the evidence presented. ie they didn't have an effin clue. A coucil van got pinged for 60+ in a 50 despite the tacho saying 36. There were many like this.
Does this mean civilian operators in the van? If so, simply ask for the police number of the serving police officer who formed the opinion of speed prior to the laser being aimed at you. I have yet to hear of a single prosecution occuring where the defence is based on the grounds of no police officer being present.
Two options.
(1) Amass evidence that a ban would cause extreme hardship i.e. loss of job (letter from employee), of house etc. etc. Plead this at trial and Mags have the discretion not to ban on these grounds.
(2) Ask Mags to deal with a ban on the current charge which could lead to a say 56 dayer which may be acceptable to employer. Thus will be left with 9 points on the Licence as a deterent.
As stated either best pleaded by a Solicitor well versed in Traffic matters.
DVD
(1) Amass evidence that a ban would cause extreme hardship i.e. loss of job (letter from employee), of house etc. etc. Plead this at trial and Mags have the discretion not to ban on these grounds.
(2) Ask Mags to deal with a ban on the current charge which could lead to a say 56 dayer which may be acceptable to employer. Thus will be left with 9 points on the Licence as a deterent.
As stated either best pleaded by a Solicitor well versed in Traffic matters.
DVD
kevinday said:
Does this mean civilian operators in the van?
In the van, and at the base. The numpties in the van targeted the laser incorrectly so were recording two vehicles as one (hence getting the wrong speed) and the twits in the office failed to realise that a mistake had been made and sent out NIPs regardless.
I agree with Dwight, it would help if he has children and can show hardship to them or others who are innocent parties. A representative of the employers being in court makes a huge difference (much more than letters).
We have refused to ban several people recently in cases where hardship would occur to others as well as the defendant.
Best of luck
A
We have refused to ban several people recently in cases where hardship would occur to others as well as the defendant.
Best of luck
A
Thanks for all the advice guys. Constructive as ever.
I have suggested to him he contacts a solictor ASAP and I can buy him some time by hanging on to the NIP until day 27.
I have also pointed him in the direction of Pepipoo. I have personal experience of challenging a speeding allegation and I have given him some (hopefully) useful advice. What I am not prepared to do, however, is offer to fight this on his behalf. The risk of a much higher penalty for him should I fail is not a burden I wish to carry.
Also, as his manager, I cannot be seen to advocate the nomination of A N Other as the driver at the time of the alleged offence. But what the eye don't see
Things were so much easier and less risky to licences and livelihoods in the good old days when TrafPol patrolled our roads and applied a bit of discretion...
I have suggested to him he contacts a solictor ASAP and I can buy him some time by hanging on to the NIP until day 27.
I have also pointed him in the direction of Pepipoo. I have personal experience of challenging a speeding allegation and I have given him some (hopefully) useful advice. What I am not prepared to do, however, is offer to fight this on his behalf. The risk of a much higher penalty for him should I fail is not a burden I wish to carry.
Also, as his manager, I cannot be seen to advocate the nomination of A N Other as the driver at the time of the alleged offence. But what the eye don't see
Things were so much easier and less risky to licences and livelihoods in the good old days when TrafPol patrolled our roads and applied a bit of discretion...
Having read these posts, just like to say how sad it makes me.
Surely in a civilised society, a person who drives 40-50k miles p.a & strays slightly over the posted speed limit on four occasions should not deserve to face losing his livelyhood.
Had he been caught burglaring my house he probably would receive a far less harsh penalty!
Where did it all go so very badly wrong?
Surely in a civilised society, a person who drives 40-50k miles p.a & strays slightly over the posted speed limit on four occasions should not deserve to face losing his livelyhood.
Had he been caught burglaring my house he probably would receive a far less harsh penalty!
Where did it all go so very badly wrong?
gone said:
If he is that careless about his licence and his livelihood, have you checked his work recently
His work is spot on - its his observational skills that need attention !
From what info I've got so far, it seems he was on a stretch of road that used to be NSL (out of town) and the powers that be have amended this to a 50mph limit. I imagine it felt like he was crawling along at 58mph.
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