Controlling legal fees
Discussion
I made an appointment with a firm of solicitors, meeting took place lasting just on two hours, with follow up of several phone calls and exchanges of emails.
Shocked this morning to receive an invoice for £1100 incl. VAT. There was a breakdown of the time the meeting took place, answering and sending/receiving emails and phone calls, the same totalling 5.5 hours.
I have the intentions of queering the above invoice amount, but I am concerned that once doing the same, then how can I possibly continue to have trust, afford and/or instruct this solicitor.
Shocked this morning to receive an invoice for £1100 incl. VAT. There was a breakdown of the time the meeting took place, answering and sending/receiving emails and phone calls, the same totalling 5.5 hours.
I have the intentions of queering the above invoice amount, but I am concerned that once doing the same, then how can I possibly continue to have trust, afford and/or instruct this solicitor.
Wings said:
I made an appointment with a firm of solicitors, meeting took place lasting just on two hours, with follow up of several phone calls and exchanges of emails.
Shocked this morning to receive an invoice for £1100 incl. VAT. There was a breakdown of the time the meeting took place, answering and sending/receiving emails and phone calls, the same totalling 5.5 hours.
I have the intentions of queering the above invoice amount, but I am concerned that once doing the same, then how can I possibly continue to have trust, afford and/or instruct this solicitor.
The guidelines for solicitors charging, etc are here. If you think they are in breach then make a complaint via their complaints process.Shocked this morning to receive an invoice for £1100 incl. VAT. There was a breakdown of the time the meeting took place, answering and sending/receiving emails and phone calls, the same totalling 5.5 hours.
I have the intentions of queering the above invoice amount, but I am concerned that once doing the same, then how can I possibly continue to have trust, afford and/or instruct this solicitor.
https://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/handbook/code/pa...
Have you signed a client care letter?
https://www.sra.org.uk/risk/blog/issue-031.page
If so, does it explain what the solicitors are going to do and what it is going to cost?
£1,100 (incl VAT) for 5.5 hrs (£166 plus VAT per hr) does not sound immediately absurd.
The current guidelines (NB -- these are rather out of date guidelines used when assessing litigation costs and have no direct bearing on what a solicitor is entitled to charge his own client) are here:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/solicitors-guideline-h...
https://www.sra.org.uk/risk/blog/issue-031.page
If so, does it explain what the solicitors are going to do and what it is going to cost?
£1,100 (incl VAT) for 5.5 hrs (£166 plus VAT per hr) does not sound immediately absurd.
The current guidelines (NB -- these are rather out of date guidelines used when assessing litigation costs and have no direct bearing on what a solicitor is entitled to charge his own client) are here:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/solicitors-guideline-h...
My experience of solicitors across various jurisdictions has shown a spectrum of behaviour; ranging from an upfront conversation with costs and order-of-magnitude estimate, to a complete black box with only a final figure presented at the end.
I work in professional services (not law), and it's a hanging offence to engage/work on behalf of a client without at least an email (preferably a piece of paper signed), stating exactly what service will be provided, and what the cost will be, with an explicit acknowledgement to proceed.
From how you describe it, it sounds like you went beyond any exploratory discussion, and instructed them (verbally at least) to execute on your behalf. With a two-hour meeting, another two to three hours of subsequent office work doesn't sound unreasonable, neither does the £1100 rate, assuming it took some legal expertise, and wasn't just the tea wallah.
I'd suggest going back to them, and ask for a discussion with the client lead or managing partner. Explain that you're happy with the service (I assume), but there was ambiguity about the effort /cost, and you're a little surprised.
One of two things will happen:
(1) either he/she will apologise, and offer a discount in order to maintain the relationship, or
(2) he/she will get the tea wallah to look back at the original meeting notes, find where it says "Advised Client X that execution of his instruction will require 4 -6 hours of chargeable time, c. £900 - £1200 in fees." and politely prevent you with the facts.
If there's no record in their notes about costs, or you agreeing to proceed without an estimate, then you can argue the toss. They may reply it doesn't matter, as you instructed them, and they applied their published rates, like it or lump it.
It's down to each of you to decide if it's worth the argument / hot air.
If this is a one-off engagement with the firm, I'd chalk it up to experience, and take business elsewhere. If you need more of them because of particular knowledge / skill / relationship, then find a way to accommodate everyone.
I work in professional services (not law), and it's a hanging offence to engage/work on behalf of a client without at least an email (preferably a piece of paper signed), stating exactly what service will be provided, and what the cost will be, with an explicit acknowledgement to proceed.
From how you describe it, it sounds like you went beyond any exploratory discussion, and instructed them (verbally at least) to execute on your behalf. With a two-hour meeting, another two to three hours of subsequent office work doesn't sound unreasonable, neither does the £1100 rate, assuming it took some legal expertise, and wasn't just the tea wallah.
I'd suggest going back to them, and ask for a discussion with the client lead or managing partner. Explain that you're happy with the service (I assume), but there was ambiguity about the effort /cost, and you're a little surprised.
One of two things will happen:
(1) either he/she will apologise, and offer a discount in order to maintain the relationship, or
(2) he/she will get the tea wallah to look back at the original meeting notes, find where it says "Advised Client X that execution of his instruction will require 4 -6 hours of chargeable time, c. £900 - £1200 in fees." and politely prevent you with the facts.
If there's no record in their notes about costs, or you agreeing to proceed without an estimate, then you can argue the toss. They may reply it doesn't matter, as you instructed them, and they applied their published rates, like it or lump it.
It's down to each of you to decide if it's worth the argument / hot air.
If this is a one-off engagement with the firm, I'd chalk it up to experience, and take business elsewhere. If you need more of them because of particular knowledge / skill / relationship, then find a way to accommodate everyone.
My legal bill for an amicable divorce said the following.
Legal services £2700
When I queried the bill as it was literally a case of drafting a financial separation order, filing the divorce paperwork and holding monies while the divorce went through.
There response. If you wish to have an itemised bill we can produce one at the cost of £120 for the man hours required to produce it.
It’s a bloody disgrace. They must have worked out what everything cost (itemised) to get to the final bill of £2700. Surely it’s just a case of putting that in a email to me. But no apparently they would have to devote man hours to produce the bill that I would be required to pay for.
Legal services £2700
When I queried the bill as it was literally a case of drafting a financial separation order, filing the divorce paperwork and holding monies while the divorce went through.
There response. If you wish to have an itemised bill we can produce one at the cost of £120 for the man hours required to produce it.
It’s a bloody disgrace. They must have worked out what everything cost (itemised) to get to the final bill of £2700. Surely it’s just a case of putting that in a email to me. But no apparently they would have to devote man hours to produce the bill that I would be required to pay for.
Edited by MB140 on Friday 3rd May 18:00
I did third party IT support for some solicitors who were choosing new software and one of their main requirements was to be able to produce a clear breakdown of costs (possibly only for their own use) and all the software we looked at did this - it would be potty if it didn't.
So unless they have a fixed rate for an amicable divorce for example (which is perfectly possible) they are almost certainly able to do this 'at the press of a button'.
Try and be nice and smooth talk them into helping you understand how their costs are calculated as you are sure they use sophisticated practice management software. Hrmph.
Mike
So unless they have a fixed rate for an amicable divorce for example (which is perfectly possible) they are almost certainly able to do this 'at the press of a button'.
Try and be nice and smooth talk them into helping you understand how their costs are calculated as you are sure they use sophisticated practice management software. Hrmph.
Mike
Generally when I work my my lawyers on something me briefing them is foc the. I get a letter stating their estimate for the work which I have to accept (stating £ per hour and max number of hours) and then works as a cap on my costs.
If it’s less hours they invoice me for that but if it’s more they honour the quote and charge that.
If it’s less hours they invoice me for that but if it’s more they honour the quote and charge that.
drmcw said:
I did third party IT support for some solicitors who were choosing new software and one of their main requirements was to be able to produce a clear breakdown of costs (possibly only for their own use) and all the software we looked at did this - it would be potty if it didn't.
So unless they have a fixed rate for an amicable divorce for example (which is perfectly possible) they are almost certainly able to do this 'at the press of a button'.
Try and be nice and smooth talk them into helping you understand how their costs are calculated as you are sure they use sophisticated practice management software. Hrmph.
Mike
It might be available at the press of a button, but I’m assuming you charged for the work you did and they also paid for the hardware that they’re using. If so, they’re entitled to recoup that cost. So unless they have a fixed rate for an amicable divorce for example (which is perfectly possible) they are almost certainly able to do this 'at the press of a button'.
Try and be nice and smooth talk them into helping you understand how their costs are calculated as you are sure they use sophisticated practice management software. Hrmph.
Mike
I could argue that you installed some software that was fairly standard so should just be a loft and drop and not really cost anything to install.
Lindun said:
It might be available at the press of a button, but I’m assuming you charged for the work you did and they also paid for the hardware that they’re using. If so, they’re entitled to recoup that cost.
I could argue that you installed some software that was fairly standard so should just be a loft and drop and not really cost anything to install.
I think you miss the point. When they assessed a task they will have done an estimate. So why charge for someone to recreate an already existing estimate?I could argue that you installed some software that was fairly standard so should just be a loft and drop and not really cost anything to install.
Vaud said:
I think you miss the point. When they assessed a task they will have done an estimate. So why charge for someone to recreate an already existing estimate?
Because an estimate isn’t what they’ve sent. They’ve sent a bill that isn’t itemised. Itemised bills are more expensive. My Dad was a Chartered Accountant before he retired. When his old business partner died he left all his estate to charity, but instructed that my Dad should do all the work to liquidate all assets and create the cash to give to the charity. He was instructed in the will to charge his full fees for this. Mu Dad chose to send one high level bill for what he deems an appropriate fee. The charity objected and insisted on an itemised bill. That bill came to more than treble his original bill. Some of the charges were for the time to itemise it all.
I don’t understand why people think it should be free.
It was the pettiness of itemising 0.6 hours on telephone, 0.5 reading and answering emails etc. etc., as i requested how can I, a client control legal costs.
My case concerns a building construction dispute, where I am expecting a building contractor to issue legal action against retention monies I am withholding payment of. I am preparing to both defend and issue a counter claim, hence commissioning a surveyor's report on the builder's defected and incomplete works.
I understand that even if my counterclaim is successful, costs are not always awarded, recoverable via the courts. Whilst the property has legal protection insurance, I am not that confidence that the insurers will provide me with financial cover. With the solicitor legal fees and surveyor's fees costs totalling just over £5K, and the former only scratching the surface of the case. I am therefore looking for possible alternative ways of covering legal costs, perhaps either a "No win no fee" legal company, or a Pro Bono solicitor/barrister etc. etc.
Lastly, is there any advantage or disadvantage in either defending or instigating legal action.
Thank you all for your helpful replies.
My case concerns a building construction dispute, where I am expecting a building contractor to issue legal action against retention monies I am withholding payment of. I am preparing to both defend and issue a counter claim, hence commissioning a surveyor's report on the builder's defected and incomplete works.
I understand that even if my counterclaim is successful, costs are not always awarded, recoverable via the courts. Whilst the property has legal protection insurance, I am not that confidence that the insurers will provide me with financial cover. With the solicitor legal fees and surveyor's fees costs totalling just over £5K, and the former only scratching the surface of the case. I am therefore looking for possible alternative ways of covering legal costs, perhaps either a "No win no fee" legal company, or a Pro Bono solicitor/barrister etc. etc.
Lastly, is there any advantage or disadvantage in either defending or instigating legal action.
Thank you all for your helpful replies.
Itemising like that is how bills get made up though. It might be input itemised but there’s no guarantee that a system can output it in an itemised format. Hence why they will charge to produce it in that format for you.
Solicitors are expensive. You’ve little to no chance of a no win / no fee agreement as that is usually subject to an insurance policy underwriting their costs in the event of losing, which you won’t have. Pro bono is all well and good but tends to be reserved for the worthiest of causes rather than a bread and butter case.
If you insist on litigating or being litigated against them it will get expensive. Mediation and compromise would be much more viable options IMO.
Solicitors are expensive. You’ve little to no chance of a no win / no fee agreement as that is usually subject to an insurance policy underwriting their costs in the event of losing, which you won’t have. Pro bono is all well and good but tends to be reserved for the worthiest of causes rather than a bread and butter case.
If you insist on litigating or being litigated against them it will get expensive. Mediation and compromise would be much more viable options IMO.
Mrs R works in the fairly specialised legal world of IP where her time is billed out at £490 plus vat / hr and any time spent on a case is itemised and recorded in 6 minute units and there is obviously a pressure on professional staff to effectively record their professional time and robustly charge for it.
Rather than "pettiness" in providing a breakdown it's more likely that the Firm's time recordal and invoice generating software has just generated a "this is what we did and this is what that cost" type of report.
Rather than "pettiness" in providing a breakdown it's more likely that the Firm's time recordal and invoice generating software has just generated a "this is what we did and this is what that cost" type of report.
Vaud said:
Wings said:
I made an appointment with a firm of solicitors, meeting took place lasting just on two hours, with follow up of several phone calls and exchanges of emails.
Shocked this morning to receive an invoice for £1100 incl. VAT. There was a breakdown of the time the meeting took place, answering and sending/receiving emails and phone calls, the same totalling 5.5 hours.
I have the intentions of queering the above invoice amount, but I am concerned that once doing the same, then how can I possibly continue to have trust, afford and/or instruct this solicitor.
The guidelines for solicitors charging, etc are here. If you think they are in breach then make a complaint via their complaints process.Shocked this morning to receive an invoice for £1100 incl. VAT. There was a breakdown of the time the meeting took place, answering and sending/receiving emails and phone calls, the same totalling 5.5 hours.
I have the intentions of queering the above invoice amount, but I am concerned that once doing the same, then how can I possibly continue to have trust, afford and/or instruct this solicitor.
https://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/handbook/code/pa...
Wings said:
It was the pettiness of itemising 0.6 hours on telephone, 0.5 reading and answering emails etc. etc., as i requested how can I, a client control legal costs.
My case concerns a building construction dispute, where I am expecting a building contractor to issue legal action against retention monies I am withholding payment of. I am preparing to both defend and issue a counter claim, hence commissioning a surveyor's report on the builder's defected and incomplete works.
I understand that even if my counterclaim is successful, costs are not always awarded, recoverable via the courts. Whilst the property has legal protection insurance, I am not that confidence that the insurers will provide me with financial cover. With the solicitor legal fees and surveyor's fees costs totalling just over £5K, and the former only scratching the surface of the case. I am therefore looking for possible alternative ways of covering legal costs, perhaps either a "No win no fee" legal company, or a Pro Bono solicitor/barrister etc. etc.
Lastly, is there any advantage or disadvantage in either defending or instigating legal action.
Thank you all for your helpful replies.
You wont get anyone to take that on a no win, no fee or pro bono basis.My case concerns a building construction dispute, where I am expecting a building contractor to issue legal action against retention monies I am withholding payment of. I am preparing to both defend and issue a counter claim, hence commissioning a surveyor's report on the builder's defected and incomplete works.
I understand that even if my counterclaim is successful, costs are not always awarded, recoverable via the courts. Whilst the property has legal protection insurance, I am not that confidence that the insurers will provide me with financial cover. With the solicitor legal fees and surveyor's fees costs totalling just over £5K, and the former only scratching the surface of the case. I am therefore looking for possible alternative ways of covering legal costs, perhaps either a "No win no fee" legal company, or a Pro Bono solicitor/barrister etc. etc.
Lastly, is there any advantage or disadvantage in either defending or instigating legal action.
Thank you all for your helpful replies.
Litigation, either instructing or defending is expensive. A few years ago I used my Advocate to extract me from my contract in a company that I was a Director of. To ensure this was done correctly cost me the thick end of £15k. The Advocate's charge out rate was £400/h and that soon adds up when they are exchanging blows with the opposite side.
Think carefully if you want to enter the process of litigation as even if you win, you may still be left to foot your own considerable legal expenses.
A compromise with the builder may well be the sensible option, even if it goes against the grain.
Wings said:
It was the pettiness of itemising 0.6 hours on telephone, 0.5 reading and answering emails etc. etc., as i requested how can I, a client control legal costs.
My case concerns a building construction dispute, where I am expecting a building contractor to issue legal action against retention monies I am withholding payment of. I am preparing to both defend and issue a counter claim, hence commissioning a surveyor's report on the builder's defected and incomplete works.
I understand that even if my counterclaim is successful, costs are not always awarded, recoverable via the courts. Whilst the property has legal protection insurance, I am not that confidence that the insurers will provide me with financial cover. With the solicitor legal fees and surveyor's fees costs totalling just over £5K, and the former only scratching the surface of the case. I am therefore looking for possible alternative ways of covering legal costs, perhaps either a "No win no fee" legal company, or a Pro Bono solicitor/barrister etc. etc.
Lastly, is there any advantage or disadvantage in either defending or instigating legal action.
Thank you all for your helpful replies.
Plenty of construction specialists out there who are not lawyers and are probably better suited to your claim. My case concerns a building construction dispute, where I am expecting a building contractor to issue legal action against retention monies I am withholding payment of. I am preparing to both defend and issue a counter claim, hence commissioning a surveyor's report on the builder's defected and incomplete works.
I understand that even if my counterclaim is successful, costs are not always awarded, recoverable via the courts. Whilst the property has legal protection insurance, I am not that confidence that the insurers will provide me with financial cover. With the solicitor legal fees and surveyor's fees costs totalling just over £5K, and the former only scratching the surface of the case. I am therefore looking for possible alternative ways of covering legal costs, perhaps either a "No win no fee" legal company, or a Pro Bono solicitor/barrister etc. etc.
Lastly, is there any advantage or disadvantage in either defending or instigating legal action.
Thank you all for your helpful replies.
Most construction contracts have adjudication clauses to avoid the need to go fully legal.
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