Online purchase, electrical, seller citing trade terms only,

[poo at Paul's]

Hi, Sorry for long post, but I am not having much luck with an online purchase of an oven for my kitchen!
Ordered from an online source, last week, showing "in stock" but turns out was not, so was delivered directly from the manufacturer via DPD.
Order comes through once paid (paypal as mastercard would not go through their system) and says it is a "trade sale" and for commercial customers only, but did not ask for any proof that I was trade as i am not, ie no order number, offered payment via paypal cards etc.

Order (once paid of course) also says that damaged items cannot be returned so to check on delivery for damage and if unable to as courier wont wait, mark as damaged when signing for it!!

Item is notified as coming via DPD yesterday, and in the hour window, DPD arrive, guy comes up drive and says "sorry, I have accidently delivered your parcel elsewhere, eh will go and get it.".

No probs I say, so 15 mins later (max) he is back, so it must have been local.
Hands me box, (quite big) and I notice that someone has tried to open it, tape on the top is cut through, but it did not obviously look like they got in, but one flap at bottom of box is loose and hanging down.... So I ask to sign and say i need to sign as damaged, DPD guy says I cannot as it was already signed for 15 mins ago and is now closed!

So, I think, ok, no prob, this happens, let me open it and see.

And this is where it gets weird. I open it up and the oven has in some areas a protective plastic coating over the stainless finish, but not the whole thing, (front etc is not covered) and there is a 10 inch gash on the plastic layer on top...........
Cant see how it can have happened, looks like was shipped like that, but think, oh st.

Take it all out, put it on table, remove plastic coating in the area damaged to see that it all looks ok underneath apart from what looks like a short scratch, 2 inch maybe at one end. Hmm, maybe I can live with that....?
But then I notice that the grill part is not adjustable for height and I cannot fit any of my pans in if or alter grill rack height if wanted to, so it looks like it is not really suitable for what i need. Shame as it looks like a good bit of kit, but no good for me.
So I call the supplier, all within 30 mins max of it arriving, they say send photos of the item, damage etc, and they will ask supplier who sent it if they will take it back... I ask, well what does it have to do with them? They reply they don't hold stock, it all comes drop shipped, I say, again, so what, I bought off you. I agree to send photos.

I go to take them and then notice the scratch is not actually a scratch, it is a long thin bit of the plastic ingrained in the brushed surface, and it wipes off completely, Hurrah.
So I send photos with email saying it's ok, no damage now.

Seller has come back today saying the manufacturer wont take it back as it is not A1 condition as this protective wrap has been removed (something I never knew was even fitted and is fitted to the stainless raw material I believe and left on for manufacturing), I point out that it was only removed due to the issue with not being able to sign for as damaged as was delivered to wrong person earlier and the outer was definitely "damaged."

I have emailed them saying i am disappointed, I believe that I can return the item under distance selling regs and asked the to reconsider, but they wont. Paypal has listened and raised a dispute for "not as described" but that's a bit grey. I think they did that as they see what I did as wholly reasonable, bearing in mind apparent damage and misdelivery, but as there is no underlying damage it is 100% mint. It is just it is no good for what I need. But looks like they wont take it back not because I don't want it, but because the plastic is removed!

I am not trying to take the piss, nor rip anyone off, I have been 100% honest with everyone and acted very promptly to let them know of the issue. But they say I have no consumer rights.
Can the say that on their Ts and Cs and be enforceable? Or does the fact they operate as an online seller and dealt with me without asking if I was trade etc, take paypal etc mean I have a right of return still?

Is the misdelivery a red herring? I only mention as they have said in writing the removal of the plastic coating is the reason they wont take a return (or the manufacturer wont) and the only reason it was removed so quickly was (ie before checking things like the grill adjustability etc) was because it went to the wrong place and they tried to open it and damaged the outer box in doing so (they may have opened it, I am not sure). Again, I did ask to sign for it damaged, but was told i could not sign for it at all, as there was nothing i could sign, (all on pda style pad etc)

These things happen, it is not massively pricey, less than £300, but I just think I have acted entirely reasonably and they, well just aren't really!!

Any opinions or advice greatly received.

Edited by poo at Paul's on Wednesday 8th May 19:19

[sgtBerbatov]

Can you escalate it with the online shop you bought it from? If not, did you pay for it with a credit card? If ring them and explain to them what's happened and they'll deal with it I think. Anything above the value of £100 the credit card company take joint liability with the seller, so if the seller is being a knob then the credit card company will settle it. The value on the card, by the way, doesn't have to be £100, it can be £1. But the product itself has to be over £100.

[DSLiverpool]

Distance selling regs, just tell them you don’t want it and please collect it.

[poo at Paul's]

sgtBerbatov said:

Can you escalate it with the online shop you bought it from? If not, did you pay for it with a credit card? If ring them and explain to them what's happened and they'll deal with it I think. Anything above the value of £100 the credit card company take joint liability with the seller, so if the seller is being a knob then the credit card company will settle it. The value on the card, by the way, doesn't have to be £100, it can be £1. But the product itself has to be over £100.

Thanks, I have raised it with the online shop who have stated they wont accept it back due to the removal of the plastic. Not due to me not wanting it, ie it not being of any real use. My point is I only removed the plastic as it appeared damaged and I had been unable to sign to that effect due to the mis delivery.
It was paid for via Paypal as the credit card option would not take my Mastercard. I have raised Paypal dispute today by phone and they have actioned it as "not as described". I presume on the basis that it appeared damaged when it arrived, but removal of the plastic proved it is actually ok. But if it arrived in good order to my address first and only my address, I would have not had to remove the plastic before checking out the other features / lack of.
It is a bit of a pain as I just feel circumstances have worked against me a bit!
Can an online seller ( I think they are ONLY online but not sure). state that it is trade only and that retail Consumer rights don't apply? I think that is the nub of it?

[poo at Paul's]

DSLiverpool said:

Distance selling regs, just tell them you don’t want it and please collect it.

That was my first thought, but could not work out why they seemd so cold on it all.
The order I received via email after I paid says it is a trade sale only, made to trade people and not subject to Consumer Rights. Hence goes on to state the action needed to be taken in the event of receiving it and not being able to check not damaged, ie sign that it IS damaged! ! Seems ludicrous, as you're just being asked to tell lies, ie sign to say damaged even though you cannot see that it is! Seems impossible to me to do the right thing.

Maybe they want their cake and to eat it! Report damages and wont take it back if it is damaged, but wont take it back if customer removes the plastic coating to check if the damage visible is just to the coating or to the product finish itself.

As I say, the item is perfect, I don't want it, but the refusal to accept it back is not because I don't want it, it is because I removed this plastic coating. So it seems like you cannot do right for doing wrong!

I have asked seller what I should have done in these unusual circumstances, and they just did not reply, (verbally or to email).

I feel like I have been "done".

[Coilspring]

poo at Paul's said:

That was my first thought, but could not work out why they seemd so cold on it all.
The order I received via email after I paid says it is a trade sale only, made to trade people and not subject to Consumer Rights. Hence goes on to state the action needed to be taken in the event of receiving it and not being able to check not damaged, ie sign that it IS damaged! ! Seems ludicrous, as you're just being asked to tell lies, ie sign to say damaged even though you cannot see that it is! Seems impossible to me to do the right thing.

Maybe they want their cake and to eat it! Report damages and wont take it back if it is damaged, but wont take it back if customer removes the plastic coating to check if the damage visible is just to the coating or to the product finish itself.

As I say, the item is perfect, I don't want it, but the refusal to accept it back is not because I don't want it, it is because I removed this plastic coating. So it seems like you cannot do right for doing wrong!

I have asked seller what I should have done in these unusual circumstances, and they just did not reply, (verbally or to email).

I feel like I have been "done".

As i see it. Having removed the plastic, if it had been damaged they would have done something about it?

But you don't want it, and it is not in the saleable condition it was in when it was dispatched. Your return reason is, not wanted, not, not good condition.

I think you are mixing up the 2 different conditions and reasons.

[poo at Paul's]

Coilspring said:

As i see it. Having removed the plastic, if it had been damaged they would have done something about it?

But you don't want it, and it is not in the saleable condition it was in when it was dispatched. Your return reason is, not wanted, not, not good condition.

I think you are mixing up the 2 different conditions and reasons.

ON your first point, I am not sure, because the "terms" on the order specifically say they wont accept damage claims unless signed for on that basis with courier. I was aware of this but was unable to sign for it at all, but the outer box was not received by me as it had been sent out, as the people it was misdelivered to tried, or did open it. So not sure i could win on that front either way! It really did have this 10 inch score mark in the plastic and even when removed, it DID seem scratched and I reported it to the seller at that stage, ie immediately.

So as I see it, I could not sign as damaged as someone else signed, (nowt to do with me) and as such if it was damaged, i was screwed! The scrape in the plastic coating I think would have meant they refused as damaged, it did look bad. So checking if it then was actually damaged means you have to remove this coating (transit / manufacturing coating?) which means they wont take it back now!

Seems like "lose lose" lol

I think the only way to "win" would be for me to sign for it as damaged when arrived here, (even if it wasn't) and not checking for any damage before deciding if it was right for me. But with not being able to do the former, i was always going to then "lose" as i did not do what their terms state, and they then wont accept a damage claim! And of course it DID appear damaged, outer pack and the item itself.

Edited by poo at Paul's on Wednesday 8th May 22:07

[Graveworm]

It's the Trade Only thing that is worrying. Consumer rights Act does not apply to trade sales so - I no longer want it, is not a reason they have to accept returns - unless that was in the initial sales agreement.
I have no idea about Cookers but it has worked for motor traders for some time. If the buyer accepts an agreement - in which they say this is a trade to trade deal then that's what it is. Its a bit hard to claim - I wasn't accurate in what I said and so you should not have relied on that.

[shep1001]

Don't most delivery companies use geo tagged POD systems. if it was miss-delivered then there will be a record of it first?

[echazfraz]

Graveworm said:

It's the Trade Only thing that is worrying. Consumer rights Act does not apply to trade sales so - I no longer want it, is not a reason they have to accept returns - unless that was in the initial sales agreement.
I have no idea about Cookers but it has worked for motor traders for some time. If the buyer accepts an agreement - in which they say this is a trade to trade deal then that's what it is. Its a bit hard to claim - I wasn't accurate in what I said and so you should not have relied on that.

I agree that this should be your main focus.

If, OP, as your first post suggests, you were only informed that this was a trade sale after you bought the oven then you may have been "misled" as you are clearly a consumer and not a business.

I'd contact Citizens' Advice and start talking to them about a trader misleading you into a trade sale.

If you genuinely weren't told until after purchase that it was a trade sale - hopefully you'll get a refund and trading standards will be asking the seller some questions.

Check here for starters:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/changed...

Good luck - the above is an opinion and not legal advice (it may be wrong).

[essayer]

If you bought it in a personal capacity then it is not a ‘trade sale’. Did you buy it on a company card, in the name of a company or have it delivered to a company address?

As a consumer, you have the right to reject the product and they can’t stall you. PayPal will return your money and they’ll know this. Be insistent

[DSLiverpool]

What you viewed prior to purchase is key here, was it clear you were buying trade ie clearly mentioned at point of purchase. Also I assume it wasn’t “trade washers direct” type of business.

[james_tigerwoods]

Sounds crap, but couldn't you argue that your trade was with the actual seller, but they chose to have it shipped from the manufacturer, therefore your contract is with the seller and not the manufacturer. Wouldn't that make you covered by distance selling regs?

[EazyDuz]

Paypal are usually very good with these things and will likely side in your favour.
That said, in future measure your pans so you know what size to order next time. Common sense.

[hutchst]

james_tigerwoods said:

Sounds crap, but couldn't you argue that your trade was with the actual seller, but they chose to have it shipped from the manufacturer, therefore your contract is with the seller and not the manufacturer. Wouldn't that make you covered by distance selling regs?

The contract is with whoever you pay the money to. (in 99.99999% of cases)

[rscott]

DSLiverpool said:

What you viewed prior to purchase is key here, was it clear you were buying trade ie clearly mentioned at point of purchase. Also I assume it wasn’t “trade washers direct” type of business.

Did the website list prices ex vat or inc? The former would be an indicator that it's a business to business site. (The likes of ebuyer and ao.com have business versions of their sites which display prices ex vat and have different t&c to the retail versions)

[james_tigerwoods]

hutchst said:

james_tigerwoods said:

Sounds crap, but couldn't you argue that your trade was with the actual seller, but they chose to have it shipped from the manufacturer, therefore your contract is with the seller and not the manufacturer. Wouldn't that make you covered by distance selling regs?

The contract is with whoever you pay the money to. (in 99.99999% of cases)

I read it that it was with the online retailer, not the manufacturer who delivered it - Therefore the "it's trade only" argument falls flat, doesn't it?

[poo at Paul's]

shep1001 said:

Don't most delivery companies use geo tagged POD systems. if it was miss-delivered then there will be a record of it first?

Yes, there is and there is no dispute about that with DPD. But they retrieved the parcel and got it to me within 30 mins or so I believe.

[poo at Paul's]

echazfraz said:

Graveworm said:

It's the Trade Only thing that is worrying. Consumer rights Act does not apply to trade sales so - I no longer want it, is not a reason they have to accept returns - unless that was in the initial sales agreement.
I have no idea about Cookers but it has worked for motor traders for some time. If the buyer accepts an agreement - in which they say this is a trade to trade deal then that's what it is. Its a bit hard to claim - I wasn't accurate in what I said and so you should not have relied on that.

I agree that this should be your main focus.

If, OP, as your first post suggests, you were only informed that this was a trade sale after you bought the oven then you may have been "misled" as you are clearly a consumer and not a business.

I'd contact Citizens' Advice and start talking to them about a trader misleading you into a trade sale.

If you genuinely weren't told until after purchase that it was a trade sale - hopefully you'll get a refund and trading standards will be asking the seller some questions.

Check here for starters:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/changed...

Good luck - the above is an opinion and not legal advice (it may be wrong).

I think this is the nub of it yes, whether that is enforceable. It seems like online only, there's no checks on trade or not and I never misrepresented myself, nor would I.
Whereas it is true that the first I saw of it was on the order acknowledgement sent after order and payment, I am guessing, (cant check without re-ordering something) that there is a tick box to click agreeing to terms before pressing buy button.
I suppose the question is, assuming that is there, and it says trade only, is that enforceable or the fact it is only mail order etc, does that mean elements (some or all) of the Consumer Rights remain? Ie a statutory right to return for a product you cannot see, touch etc, and which by their own admission now, the seller never holds, (they say they hold no stock).
To me that seems a little unfair. There's no opportunity for anyone to see it, try it for size etc, and of course the manufacturer wont deal with "customers" they refer you to the reseller....a reseller with no stock! Just seems a bit unfair.
Thanks for all the input btw.

[poo at Paul's]

rscott said:

DSLiverpool said:

What you viewed prior to purchase is key here, was it clear you were buying trade ie clearly mentioned at point of purchase. Also I assume it wasn’t “trade washers direct” type of business.

Did the website list prices ex vat or inc? The former would be an indicator that it's a business to business site. (The likes of ebuyer and ao.com have business versions of their sites which display prices ex vat and have different t&c to the retail versions)

Good question, ie shows both, but the default is incl VAT, then shows the net smaller at the bottom.