Lorry drive time in motorway stoppages/delays
Discussion
Today, I was sat in the traffic between J19 and J18 of the M25 after some poor sod on a bike came into conflict with a lorry. Hopefully he's doing better than could be expected, but with the duration of the investigation I don't think they fancied his chances.
Toward the end of my 7 hours of occasional movement, but mostly stopping, I looked at all the lorries around me and thought... How do lorry drivers, bound by taco regs, deal with this sort of thing? Note that we were not stationary for 7 hours, but it was a case of moving a few car lengths, then stopping for 20-30 minutes, then repeat. I did 1.4 miles in those 7 hours.
Hard shoulder rest breaks appear to be illegal in the UK (certainly on the M25 they have really cracked down on it and fine them), but likewise stopping for 20-30 minutes doesn't constitute a rest either.
So... if a trucker is essentially (but not literally) stopped for 7 hours, how does he deal with rest breaks? Also how does the law deal with rest breaks?
Is there some leniency? Presumably if they must tke the very next stop then that isn't possible after 7 hours stuck on the M25 as the few spaces available will get full up as soon as there is movement.
As an aside, I saw only two "not official-looking" vehicles driving up the hard shoulder in those 7 hours. Not bad. Also, if the chap with a lowered black Jaguar XKR who was first to break the seal is reading this, nice car! (I held mine for the duration and enjoyed a detour to Rickmansworth Tesco)
Toward the end of my 7 hours of occasional movement, but mostly stopping, I looked at all the lorries around me and thought... How do lorry drivers, bound by taco regs, deal with this sort of thing? Note that we were not stationary for 7 hours, but it was a case of moving a few car lengths, then stopping for 20-30 minutes, then repeat. I did 1.4 miles in those 7 hours.
Hard shoulder rest breaks appear to be illegal in the UK (certainly on the M25 they have really cracked down on it and fine them), but likewise stopping for 20-30 minutes doesn't constitute a rest either.
So... if a trucker is essentially (but not literally) stopped for 7 hours, how does he deal with rest breaks? Also how does the law deal with rest breaks?
Is there some leniency? Presumably if they must tke the very next stop then that isn't possible after 7 hours stuck on the M25 as the few spaces available will get full up as soon as there is movement.
As an aside, I saw only two "not official-looking" vehicles driving up the hard shoulder in those 7 hours. Not bad. Also, if the chap with a lowered black Jaguar XKR who was first to break the seal is reading this, nice car! (I held mine for the duration and enjoyed a detour to Rickmansworth Tesco)
HGV drivers have two sets of regulations (excluding the driving laws on speed etc) relating to working time.
WTD - which DVSA/VOSA do not care a jot about. Total hours worked without a break.
And European driving hours laws. Which they will fine you for. Total hours driving without a break.
When stuck in traffic - unless you go over your daily hours (13/15 hours in a day) it's rare to get an EU hours issue. Tacho's work in whole minutes. So if you move for 59 seconds and stop it will count that minute at other work. When you are stopped it's not adding driving hours time but 'other work'. If you go over your EU hours you really should get a printout and write an excuse. However most printouts with excuses are fairytales to get blokes home on a friday after a week away (and who can blame them).
Now most big companies do care about WTD. And they won't care about a printout. They will want you to sign a form saying you have been informed about your naughtiness and you have had training. You will not get any training but they will make you sign to say you have. What is more if you make more than a few of these mistakes they will likely ban you from site. They won't care about why - they will just get rid of you.
That being said - if you have a crash and kill someone you are likely to be taken to court if you have loads of WTD violations. Whilst they do not fine you for such things at the roadside I have no doubt they would use it to put blame on the driver.
And that's before we go into dodgy ways of conning the company Tacho software (note you can't really con VOSA as they use a speed trace as well - and will persecute you if you take liberties in a dodgy way).
WTD - which DVSA/VOSA do not care a jot about. Total hours worked without a break.
And European driving hours laws. Which they will fine you for. Total hours driving without a break.
When stuck in traffic - unless you go over your daily hours (13/15 hours in a day) it's rare to get an EU hours issue. Tacho's work in whole minutes. So if you move for 59 seconds and stop it will count that minute at other work. When you are stopped it's not adding driving hours time but 'other work'. If you go over your EU hours you really should get a printout and write an excuse. However most printouts with excuses are fairytales to get blokes home on a friday after a week away (and who can blame them).
Now most big companies do care about WTD. And they won't care about a printout. They will want you to sign a form saying you have been informed about your naughtiness and you have had training. You will not get any training but they will make you sign to say you have. What is more if you make more than a few of these mistakes they will likely ban you from site. They won't care about why - they will just get rid of you.
That being said - if you have a crash and kill someone you are likely to be taken to court if you have loads of WTD violations. Whilst they do not fine you for such things at the roadside I have no doubt they would use it to put blame on the driver.
And that's before we go into dodgy ways of conning the company Tacho software (note you can't really con VOSA as they use a speed trace as well - and will persecute you if you take liberties in a dodgy way).
Pretty easily,
Theres 2 rules that get in the way, you need a 45 minute break every 4.5 hours. Driving time is only used when your in motion. When you're sat in traffic the tacho switches to 'other work'.
Other rule is you need a 15 minute break every 6 hours too, but only if the total of driving work and other work exceeds this.
So, for example, if you have done 3 hours driving, with 1.5 hours left and only in motion for 1 hour through the traffic in a 7 hour delay, you just need a 15 minute break as it'll fall under the 6 hour rule.
Those that pull over in traffic for breaks dont plan ahead enough. At the start of my shifts I always have a good look at my map before loading the sat nav if I dont know the area - If driver hours are exceeded you get into silly trouble, you can have exuses but they never wash. If you keep doing it you loose your job and VOSA will have a field day - I drive a 44 ton artic daily.
Theres 2 rules that get in the way, you need a 45 minute break every 4.5 hours. Driving time is only used when your in motion. When you're sat in traffic the tacho switches to 'other work'.
Other rule is you need a 15 minute break every 6 hours too, but only if the total of driving work and other work exceeds this.
So, for example, if you have done 3 hours driving, with 1.5 hours left and only in motion for 1 hour through the traffic in a 7 hour delay, you just need a 15 minute break as it'll fall under the 6 hour rule.
Those that pull over in traffic for breaks dont plan ahead enough. At the start of my shifts I always have a good look at my map before loading the sat nav if I dont know the area - If driver hours are exceeded you get into silly trouble, you can have exuses but they never wash. If you keep doing it you loose your job and VOSA will have a field day - I drive a 44 ton artic daily.
milkround said:
Tacho's work in whole minutes. So if you move for 59 seconds and stop it will count that minute at other work.
This is not correct. Older digital tachos would record a whole minute as driving if there was more than 5 seconds driving within the minute.
Later models, from about 2011, allocate the minute based on what the principal activity was, so drive for 29 seconds, do other work for 31 seconds the minute will be recorded as other work. Drive for 31 seconds, do other work for 29 seconds the minute will be recorded as driving. It's never been the case that you have to drive for the whole minute for it to be recorded as driving.
The exception to this is if there is other work recorded in a minute where the minutes either side of it are driving. In this case the minute will be recorded as driving regardless of how much of it is other work.
Cat
Len Woodman said:
Seven Hours - phew!
I understood that the emergency services and Highways England had a procedure called 'rearward relief' so that traffic stuck between exits can be turned around and directed off the motorway at the previous exit.
They did that for the vehicles at the front. As I understand, the closure of the M25 resulted in gridlock on the roads around Rickmansworth, putting 4 lanes of rush hour traffic onto local roads on top of their usual traffic was never going to work! They closed the on-slips for a few junctions back to try and keep things moving on the local roads.I understood that the emergency services and Highways England had a procedure called 'rearward relief' so that traffic stuck between exits can be turned around and directed off the motorway at the previous exit.
But hours in traffic is better than being the poor sod at the front.
ETA 8 lanes... They closed the clockwise carriageway for the air ambulance.
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