Penalty notice for leaving site of a free carpark

[Silverage]

Came back to one of these today.

Now we may or may not have left the site for a period of time, but would they be able to prove it if we disputed it? I accept they probably have a photo of the car in situ, but they’re surely not taking pictures of people walking off?

[Paul Dishman]

Perhaps you were spotted on CCTV?

[DanL]

Silverage said:

Came back to one of these today.

Now we may or may not have left the site for a period of time, but would they be able to prove it if we disputed it? I accept they probably have a photo of the car in situ, but they’re surely not taking pictures of people walking off?

Not sure I understand... What’s the PCN for, and how does the car park work? Free if shopping at certain shops, but not if you shop elsewhere or something?

[Monkeylegend]

Silverage said:

Came back to one of these today.

Now we may or may not have left the site for a period of time, but would they be able to prove it if we disputed it? I accept they probably have a photo of the car in situ, but they’re surely not taking pictures of people walking off?

So you did abandon your car there and leave to go elsewhere

[Silverage]

DanL said:

ot sure I understand... What’s the PCN for, and how does the car park work? Free if shopping at certain shops, but not if you shop elsewhere or something?

It’s a free car park on a retail park with about 15 large stores. The only posted restrictions are maximum three hour stay and that the driver may not leave the site while the vehicle is parked there. The PCN is for leaving.

[Silverage]

Monkeylegend said:

So you did abandon your car there and leave to go elsewhere

Well that’s what I’m asking. Even if the driver of a car parked there were to leave the site, how would they be able to prove it if disputed? This car park must hold about 1000 cars so they can’t be recording where everyone goes as they leave their vehicles.

[FazerBoy]

Silverage said:

Monkeylegend said:

So you did abandon your car there and leave to go elsewhere

Well that’s what I’m asking.

So you’re asking whether you left the site...?

[Connectors]

Monkeylegend said:

So you did abandon your car there and leave to go elsewhere

He quite obviously did, but that's not what he's asking is it?

[DanL]

Silverage said:

DanL said:

ot sure I understand... What’s the PCN for, and how does the car park work? Free if shopping at certain shops, but not if you shop elsewhere or something?

It’s a free car park on a retail park with about 15 large stores. The only posted restrictions are maximum three hour stay and that the driver may not leave the site while the vehicle is parked there. The PCN is for leaving.

Ah, ok - got it. One presumes they use CCTV, and you were unlucky to get caught leaving the site... That’s assuming that you did, of course, but you’re not saying “PCN for something we didn’t do”, which would be the normal reaction if you hadn’t.

So, assuming they didn’t give everyone in the car park a ticket, they either got you on CCTV or someone’s patrolling the site and saw you go from car to exit, or exit back to car...

Next time, go to a store first for some shopping then off site...

[DanL]

Just to add - I suppose you’ll find out how they prove this if / when you dispute the charge. Assume there’s no reason not to dispute it, so why not give it a go and let us know what they say? Could be useful info for others...

[Silverage]

DanL said:

Next time, go to a store first for some shopping then off site...

This is my point though, even that would still be breaking their rules, but how would they be able to keep track of it? There is no CCTV there, it’s just a guy wandering around.

[S11Steve]

Take it to POPLA, appeal on the grounds that there is no proof.

PPCs never contest these at POPLA as there is already a persuasive ruling that the parking company failed to mitigate their losses at the point the driver allegedly left.

There's a common trap near where I live at Markham Retail park, Chesterfield. Google it, you'll find plenty of examples of appeals to use, and have a search for VCS v Ibbotson - Shorpe Court. That's the persuading argument against the issuer.

Appeal it as keeper, not driver, and two letters will make this go away.

[Monkeylegend]

Connectors said:

Monkeylegend said:

So you did abandon your car there and leave to go elsewhere

He quite obviously did, but that's not what he's asking is it?

Look above your post and you will see OP has asked

[DanL]

Silverage said:

DanL said:

Next time, go to a store first for some shopping then off site...

This is my point though, even that would still be breaking their rules, but how would they be able to keep track of it? There is no CCTV there, it’s just a guy wandering around.

Luck of the draw, isn’t it? The rules seem clear, you seem to know them. They won’t catch everyone who breaks them, but you can clearly reduce your chances of being noticed...

Edited to add: if your defence is “they can’t / don’t catch everyone, so why should I have to pay when they spot me?”, then... well... good luck with that!

Edited by DanL on Saturday 1st June 22:02

[Jeremy-75qq8]

Amazing that Shorpe gets censored !

I had this on another forum when discussing “ back of a fag packet” calculations. Fag got removed which I found a combination of funny and unbelievable.

[Silverage]

S11Steve said:

Take it to POPLA, appeal on the grounds that there is no proof.

PPCs never contest these at POPLA as there is already a persuasive ruling that the parking company failed to mitigate their losses at the point the driver allegedly left.

There's a common trap near where I live at Markham Retail park, Chesterfield. Google it, you'll find plenty of examples of appeals to use, and have a search for VCS v Ibbotson - Shorpe Court. That's the persuading argument against the issuer.

Appeal it as keeper, not driver, and two letters will make this go away.

Thanks for that Steve and taking the time to contribute. Do I wait until they write to me or can I appeal based on what they stuck on my windscreen today?

[S11Steve]

Silverage said:

Thanks for that Steve and taking the time to contribute. Do I wait until they write to me or can I appeal based on what they stuck on my windscreen today?

Wait until they write to you as keeper. It leaves more defence points available, such as whether the documents comply with POFA 2012.

[The Mad Monk]

DanL said:

Just to add - I suppose you’ll find out how they prove this if / when you dispute the charge. Assume there’s no reason not to dispute it, so why not give it a go and let us know what they say? Could be useful info for others...

Yes, but that would mean telling lies, wouldn't it?

[Silverage]

S11Steve said:

Wait until they write to you as keeper. It leaves more defence points available, such as whether the documents comply with POFA 2012.

Thanks again Steve. I’ll do that and report back in due course as to how it turns out.

[DB77]

I normally would reply to these types of threads unless I had something useful to add. However, you used a car park against its rules, got caught out and now want to weasel out of paying? Just pay the fine FFS. I am sure we all do stuff that we shouldn’t, we know there is a risk, just accept it.

I am sure someone will come back with the answer of either:
(I) the car parking companies are sheisters and you should not give them the satisfaction of winning, but in this case it all seems clear that they are in the wrong; or
(ii) why pay when I can avoid it through sending a letter or two - a similar attitude no doubt to buying something on EBay and then raising a false dispute to get reimbursed.

Just a bit of honesty would be good!

why pay if I don’t have to”