Turning Left in a Yellow Box - Do the rules make sense?
Discussion
Hello, the wife (honestly) recently got a fine for stopping in a yellow hatch box (UK road so driving on the left side of the road).
When this happened, I reminded myself of what the rules are, and believe that she did indeed break the law. However, the more I thought about it, the more it seems like the rules are wrong in this instance.
First, let me remind you of the rules (in my own words):
1. Don't enter a yellow box unless your exit is clear, unless:
2. You are turning right, your exit is clear, however, you need to stop to give way to oncoming cars.
So what did my wife do:
She turned left into a hatched box and her exit was only partially clear so she stopped partially in the box. So, this is a clear violation of the rule.
But why is blocking the yellow hatch when turning left an issue? This makes no sense to me. Let me explain.
Let's say my wife's car is the red rectangle, and she's wants to turn into the junction as shown in the diagram below.
If she breaks the rules, and goes anyway, any cars behind her may be obstructed. But if she had waited, they wouldn't be able to go anyway.
Her hatched parked position is not blocking any oncoming cars, and any cars approaching from the right would have to wait for that space to be clear anyway.
So, as far as I can see, when turning left, it makes no difference to the traffic if you wait or go.
So why does this rule exist.
Welcome any thoughts on this, especially if there are any clauses that suggest a left turn is acceptable.
When this happened, I reminded myself of what the rules are, and believe that she did indeed break the law. However, the more I thought about it, the more it seems like the rules are wrong in this instance.
First, let me remind you of the rules (in my own words):
1. Don't enter a yellow box unless your exit is clear, unless:
2. You are turning right, your exit is clear, however, you need to stop to give way to oncoming cars.
So what did my wife do:
She turned left into a hatched box and her exit was only partially clear so she stopped partially in the box. So, this is a clear violation of the rule.
But why is blocking the yellow hatch when turning left an issue? This makes no sense to me. Let me explain.
Let's say my wife's car is the red rectangle, and she's wants to turn into the junction as shown in the diagram below.
If she breaks the rules, and goes anyway, any cars behind her may be obstructed. But if she had waited, they wouldn't be able to go anyway.
Her hatched parked position is not blocking any oncoming cars, and any cars approaching from the right would have to wait for that space to be clear anyway.
So, as far as I can see, when turning left, it makes no difference to the traffic if you wait or go.
So why does this rule exist.
Welcome any thoughts on this, especially if there are any clauses that suggest a left turn is acceptable.
It is wrong because it prevents traffic moving straight on past her (coming from the same route as her). In the case where the route whence she came had two lanes, another likely scenario is that the car will move right to go straight ahead, blocking or causing an accident with a vehicle in the right-hand lane.
As a comparison, would you move onto and stop on a railway crossing if the way ahead was not clear? I would not, but I have seen idiots do just that!
As a comparison, would you move onto and stop on a railway crossing if the way ahead was not clear? I would not, but I have seen idiots do just that!
Pica-Pica said:
It is wrong because it prevents traffic moving straight on past her (coming from the same route as her).
As the OP pointed out if she doesn't drive around the corner the cars behind her can't go any way!!!!! I'm with the OP here, the rules in this situation don't make sense.AS the OP explains it, I can understand that it makes no sense BUT if the Ops wife had been coming from the right (instead of the bottom) she would have ended up in EXACTLY the same place, This would then have blocked the road for anyone who was coming from the bottom.
As a snapshot of the OPs wife's car stopped in the yellow box it is impossible to tell which way the car had come from - hence the ticket.
I suspect more people get done like this than people going straight across, because it can be harder to see the blue vehicle, if it's round the corner.
As a snapshot of the OPs wife's car stopped in the yellow box it is impossible to tell which way the car had come from - hence the ticket.
I suspect more people get done like this than people going straight across, because it can be harder to see the blue vehicle, if it's round the corner.
They are stressful to deal with at times.
The rule seems to indicate we all cross them one by one (so we can be sure the exit is clear) but we don't as it would cause so many delays. We judge the traffic and believe we can clear it with the car(s) in front.
However, I have followed cars over and can see they will clear the box and leave me space too, only for them to decide not to stop close to the car in front which is beyond the junction but at such a distance I am now left on the yellow lines myself.
This means for me if I know the junction is under cameras, I ain't going until the box and beyond it is well clear. Does lead to quite some abuse, though.
My local big yellow box junction has no cameras and is an effin' nightmare - if I do the above (wait for a clear exit) those behind will swing around me and block the box anyhow, so I have to go and do so myself or I am stuck there all day.
The rule seems to indicate we all cross them one by one (so we can be sure the exit is clear) but we don't as it would cause so many delays. We judge the traffic and believe we can clear it with the car(s) in front.
However, I have followed cars over and can see they will clear the box and leave me space too, only for them to decide not to stop close to the car in front which is beyond the junction but at such a distance I am now left on the yellow lines myself.
This means for me if I know the junction is under cameras, I ain't going until the box and beyond it is well clear. Does lead to quite some abuse, though.
My local big yellow box junction has no cameras and is an effin' nightmare - if I do the above (wait for a clear exit) those behind will swing around me and block the box anyhow, so I have to go and do so myself or I am stuck there all day.
Pica-Pica said:
It is wrong because it prevents traffic moving straight on past her (coming from the same route as her). In the case where the route whence she came had two lanes, another likely scenario is that the car will move right to go straight ahead, blocking or causing an accident with a vehicle in the right-hand lane.
As a comparison, would you move onto and stop on a railway crossing if the way ahead was not clear? I would not, but I have seen idiots do just that!
So basically it's wrong "if" a load of things are different to the situation the OP described.As a comparison, would you move onto and stop on a railway crossing if the way ahead was not clear? I would not, but I have seen idiots do just that!
I'm with the OP on this.
You will still get a ticket though, as the law says (in my words) if you're stuck by traffic in a yellow box and not turning right, you're in the wrong.
NGee said:
AS the OP explains it, I can understand that it makes no sense BUT if the Ops wife had been coming from the right (instead of the bottom) she would have ended up in EXACTLY the same place, This would then have blocked the road for anyone who was coming from the bottom.
As a snapshot of the OPs wife's car stopped in the yellow box it is impossible to tell which way the car had come from - hence the ticket.
I suspect more people get done like this than people going straight across, because it can be harder to see the blue vehicle, if it's round the corner.
The bit in bold is the key for me.As a snapshot of the OPs wife's car stopped in the yellow box it is impossible to tell which way the car had come from - hence the ticket.
I suspect more people get done like this than people going straight across, because it can be harder to see the blue vehicle, if it's round the corner.
The direction of travel is different, but the traffic violation is the identical..
If a car coming from the right did this, it would be seen a violation, as they did not clear the yellow box.
The OP's wife created the same violation, turning left from the bottom.
Kuji said:
NGee said:
AS the OP explains it, I can understand that it makes no sense BUT if the Ops wife had been coming from the right (instead of the bottom) she would have ended up in EXACTLY the same place, This would then have blocked the road for anyone who was coming from the bottom.
As a snapshot of the OPs wife's car stopped in the yellow box it is impossible to tell which way the car had come from - hence the ticket.
I suspect more people get done like this than people going straight across, because it can be harder to see the blue vehicle, if it's round the corner.
The bit in bold is the key for me.As a snapshot of the OPs wife's car stopped in the yellow box it is impossible to tell which way the car had come from - hence the ticket.
I suspect more people get done like this than people going straight across, because it can be harder to see the blue vehicle, if it's round the corner.
The direction of travel is different, but the traffic violation is the identical..
If a car coming from the right did this, it would be seen a violation, as they did not clear the yellow box.
The OP's wife created the same violation, turning left from the bottom.
But she's broken the rules, no question, and is banged to rights.
People are considering one car in isolation, you need to consider all the traffic. You would end up with one car that couldn't quite exit, one car fully in the box and one just entering. Then the lights would change and the first car from the right going straight or the first turning right from the top would bring those lanes to a stop and you'd be back to the gridlock the box junction is designed to prevent.
Clive-sz8cz said:
Pica-Pica said:
It is wrong because it prevents traffic moving straight on past her (coming from the same route as her).
As the OP pointed out if she doesn't drive around the corner the cars behind her can't go any way!!!!! I'm with the OP here, the rules in this situation don't make sense.Thanks everyone for your input.
The general consensus seems to be:
1. She broke the law
2. In this instance, the law provides no benefit to traffic, but the rules are the rules and we all must obey.
This was pretty much inline with my original thinking, I'm planning on challenging this on the basis of no obstruction was caused, but I fear it will be a loosing battle. When asked, did you stop in the box, and was your exit obstructed when you entered the box, the answer will be "yes".
We've managed to figure out finally which junction it was at. Looks a little different to the image above (sorry about that), but the concepts are similar.
Turns out there was an additional road to the left, but the markings are such that the box extends beyond the road markings, so there is still no obstruction caused (although one possible obstruction is a HGV turning right from the left).
What I think is a little unfair here is, drivers are expected to monitor their exit (to their left), whilst giving way to cars in the opposite direction (the right). At busy times, when gaps in traffics are limited, it can be challenging to carry out all these tasks in time.
If you are turning right, or going straight, your exit is in the same direction as the cars you are giving way to so it's much easier to manage.
The general consensus seems to be:
1. She broke the law
2. In this instance, the law provides no benefit to traffic, but the rules are the rules and we all must obey.
This was pretty much inline with my original thinking, I'm planning on challenging this on the basis of no obstruction was caused, but I fear it will be a loosing battle. When asked, did you stop in the box, and was your exit obstructed when you entered the box, the answer will be "yes".
We've managed to figure out finally which junction it was at. Looks a little different to the image above (sorry about that), but the concepts are similar.
Turns out there was an additional road to the left, but the markings are such that the box extends beyond the road markings, so there is still no obstruction caused (although one possible obstruction is a HGV turning right from the left).
What I think is a little unfair here is, drivers are expected to monitor their exit (to their left), whilst giving way to cars in the opposite direction (the right). At busy times, when gaps in traffics are limited, it can be challenging to carry out all these tasks in time.
If you are turning right, or going straight, your exit is in the same direction as the cars you are giving way to so it's much easier to manage.
The big issue for me is being overtaken will in a box junction. I was in the left hand lane with a clear exit, while crossing the junction I am overtaken by a car in the right lane who has floored it to get ahead of me. He barely makes and I have to hit the brakes to avoid hitting the car.
Now I am illegally stuck in the box, even though the exit was clear when I moved into it.
Now I am illegally stuck in the box, even though the exit was clear when I moved into it.
bartelbe said:
The big issue for me is being overtaken will in a box junction. I was in the left hand lane with a clear exit, while crossing the junction I am overtaken by a car in the right lane who has floored it to get ahead of me. He barely makes and I have to hit the brakes to avoid hitting the car.
Now I am illegally stuck in the box, even though the exit was clear when I moved into it.
You aren't illegally stuck in the box. It's legal to be in the stuck in the box going straight on, it your exit was clear when you entered. If your exit is blocked after you enter by some selfish buffoon, you haven't broken any laws. Now I am illegally stuck in the box, even though the exit was clear when I moved into it.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
You aren't illegally stuck in the box. It's legal to be in the stuck in the box going straight on, it your exit was clear when you entered. If your exit is blocked after you enter by some selfish buffoon, you haven't broken any laws.
Whilst technically you may be right - try telling that to a camera!There have been several stories of this exact scenario on the forum over the years. I don't think anyone has ever been able to use this as an excuse to avoid the "you're in the box, here's the fine". However I may be wrong and would be interested to hear from any one who has been done in that situation.
NGee said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
You aren't illegally stuck in the box. It's legal to be in the stuck in the box going straight on, it your exit was clear when you entered. If your exit is blocked after you enter by some selfish buffoon, you haven't broken any laws.
Whilst technically you may be right - try telling that to a camera!There have been several stories of this exact scenario on the forum over the years. I don't think anyone has ever been able to use this as an excuse to avoid the "you're in the box, here's the fine". However I may be wrong and would be interested to hear from any one who has been done in that situation.
If drivers are fined when it is clear they are nudging over stop lines to let an emergency services vehicle pass, there's no way I would want to test this one.
NGee said:
Whilst technically you may be right - try telling that to a camera!
There have been several stories of this exact scenario on the forum over the years. I don't think anyone has ever been able to use this as an excuse to avoid the "you're in the box, here's the fine". However I may be wrong and would be interested to hear from any one who has been done in that situation.
Do doughnuts so that you are at no point stationary in the yellow box There have been several stories of this exact scenario on the forum over the years. I don't think anyone has ever been able to use this as an excuse to avoid the "you're in the box, here's the fine". However I may be wrong and would be interested to hear from any one who has been done in that situation.
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