Tachograph requirement when towing

[woodypup59]

Got stopped on the A3 today in a Vito van, with a small car on a trailer behind.

Police asked if it was my car, I said no, I’m taking it to Goodwood for a client.

Police asked to see the Tachograph. Said I didn’t need one, as I'm well under 3.5 tons train weight.

If it was my own car it would have been OK, but he said as you’re being paid to do it, and you have the capability of being over 3.5 tons MAM, you do need a tacho. (The van's MAM is 4.7 tons).

Result – a significant fine !

It seems Hants Police are pretty hot on this. BEWARE

Future choices are 1) fit a tacho, 2) only transport cars for free 3) only transport my own cars.

[borcy]

Pretty unusual to hear of fines like this. Other car forums I've been on people regularly move all sorts of cars behind other cars, some just on dolley trailers. I know that's not the same issue that you got pulled but still a towing issue.

Seems the police in some areas are interested in the legalities of towing.

[Sheepshanks]

woodypup59 said:

(The van's MAM is 4.7 tons).

Isn't that figure its GTW?

[s2sol]

The reason I sold my light haulage business was because of people like the op. I would quote for business, factoring in costs like operating licence, operating centre, tachograph calibration etc. Then someone with a setup like the op would be 30 pence per mile cheaper.

Through ignorance of the law, or just arrogance, people think it's fine to undercut legimate businesses. The fines are in place to discourage people like the op gaining a commercial advantage over businesses that obey the law.

[meatballs]

woodypup59 said:

Got stopped on the A3 today in a Vito van, with a small car on a trailer behind.

Police asked if it was my car, I said no, I’m taking it to Goodwood for a client.

Police asked to see the Tachograph. Said I didn’t need one, as I'm well under 3.5 tons train weight.

If it was my own car it would have been OK, but he said as you’re being paid to do it, and you have the capability of being over 3.5 tons MAM, you do need a tacho. (The van's MAM is 4.7 tons).

Result – a significant fine !

It seems Hants Police are pretty hot on this. BEWARE

Future choices are 1) fit a tacho, 2) only transport cars for free 3) only transport my own cars.

4) fib

[woodypup59]

OK s2sol, I can see you're a bit miffed, but in my case it was total ignorance.

The van, trailer and small car total about 2.8 t, well under the 3.5 t, so I always considered myself to not need a tachograph.

Guess I need to mug up on modern towing law - as well doing the day job.

He also had a moan about the old paper licence !

[s2sol]

That's ok, you got caught and fined. It's those that get away with it that upset me.

[magooagain]

s2sol said:

That's ok, you got caught and fined. It's those that get away with it that upset me.

Did you sell your light haulage business for a profit?

[poppopbangbang]

woodypup59 said:

Future choices are 1) fit a tacho, 2) only transport cars for free 3) only transport my own cars.

4) Have a 3.5T box van built that can carry a car. If you don't need more than 1.1T capacity then this is under 3.5T all up and is a 3.5T van for all intense and purpose.

We have two 4.5T Renault Master platform cabs down plated at build to 3.5T (because the 4.5T option has a pokier motor, better brakes etc.) with bespoke boxes on the back that we move various Formula cars in as they are far quicker and less restrictive to use than the truck.

Also worth noting that even if you transport them for free it can still be seen as reward if part of your ongoing work from that customer is dependant on you moving their car i.e. the car movement is not an exclusive activity but part of paid work.

[littleredrooster]

magooagain said:

s2sol said:

That's ok, you got caught and fined. It's those that get away with it that upset me.

Did you sell your light haulage business for a profit?

And - other than being provocative - what's that got to do with anything?

This is becoming more & more typical of PH these days...

[s2sol]

magooagain said:

Did you sell your light haulage business for a profit?

I doubt it. It's very difficult to say. I made a decent living for a few years, but I probably persevered longer than I should have done when margins went to the wall. What I sold, ultimately, was a couple of vehicles and a list of clients, to a competitor. It wasn't a standalone business.

[s2sol]

littleredrooster said:

And - other than being provocative - what's that got to do with anything?

This is becoming more & more typical of PH these days...

I'll come back to this tomorrow. I promise there is a point.

[cossy400]

What was the fine?

And Rog on here is pretty clued up on these matters.

[gazza285]

woodypup59 said:

The van, trailer and small car total about 2.8 t, well under the 3.5 t, so I always considered myself to not need a tachograph.

Guess I need to mug up on modern towing law - as well doing the day job.

If your train weight is capable of carrying more than 3500kg, then you need a tachometer if it is for hire and reward. It has been the same since I passed my test thirty years ago...

[meatballs]

gazza285 said:

If your train weight is capable of carrying more than 3500kg, then you need a tachometer if it is for hire and reward. It has been the same since I passed my test thirty years ago...

Didn't come up on my b+e training or test this year

[shovelheadrob]

Even if it's your own goods on the trailer, there is a maximum distance from your premises after which a tachograph is required. I work all over the country & some of Europe too, I have a large twin axle caravan which is used for accommodation for myself & 2 other workers, by the letter of the law I should have a tachograph & an operators licence.

I also have a copy of an older letter between VOSA & Ifor Williams, which used to be on the Internet, via the VOSA page.
To the OP did you get a fixed penalty notice or has the offence been reported for prosecution? You mentioned a fine, what was it actually for? It could be worth contesting.

[woodypup59]

The fine (28 days to pay) was £300 for not having a tachog.

Thanks for all the info people.

I think the kicker is the hire or reward aspect - I admitted that I was being paid to do it.

I am getting some advise from ex coppers and the RAC legal team so I guess we'll see.

Edited by woodypup59 on Friday 13th September 08:51

[Cat]

shovelheadrob said:

Even if it's your own goods on the trailer, there is a maximum distance from your premises after which a tachograph is required.

If the MAM of combination is less than 7500kg then providing it isn't being used for commercial purposes then there is no requirement for a tachograph and there is no maximum distance.

shovelheadrob said:

I also have a copy of an older letter between VOSA & Ifor Williams, which used to be on the Internet, via the VOSA page.
To the OP did you get a fixed penalty notice or has the offence been reported for prosecution? You mentioned a fine, what was it actually for? It could be worth contesting.

The letter you have posted relates to C&U overloading offences. In thoses cases it is the actual weight of the vehicle/trailer which matter.

Unfortunately for the OP, where tachographs are concerned, if the plated weight of the combination exceeds 3500kg then a tacho is required regardless of the actual weight of the vehicles.

Cat

[Leptons]

[quote=s2solThe fines are in place to discourage people like the op gaining a commercial advantage over businesses that obey the law.
[/quote]

No they aren’t. They are there to regulate the industry so people aren’t driving around with no sleep for days on end.

[shovelheadrob]

Cat said:

shovelheadrob said:

Even if it's your own goods on the trailer, there is a maximum distance from your premises after which a tachograph is required.

If the MAM of combination is less than 7500kg then providing it isn't being used for commercial purposes then there is no requirement for a tachograph and there is no maximum distance.

shovelheadrob said:

I also have a copy of an older letter between VOSA & Ifor Williams, which used to be on the Internet, via the VOSA page.
To the OP did you get a fixed penalty notice or has the offence been reported for prosecution? You mentioned a fine, what was it actually for? It could be worth contesting.

The letter you have posted relates to C&U overloading offences. In thoses cases it is the actual weight of the vehicle/trailer which matter.

Unfortunately for the OP, where tachographs are concerned, if the plated weight of the combination exceeds 3500kg then a tacho is required regardless of the actual weight of the vehicles.

Cat

How do they define commercial use? In the course of your business? Or just where you gain a benefit from transporting the goods? I sometimes use a trailer to clear surplus materials from site at the end of a job, the materials are mine to do what I want with (although supplied by the company I subcontract to) & rather than chuck them in a skip I either use them myself or give them to someone else who can. I receive no benefit from this but my GTW is around 5000kg & it could be anywhere in the UK.