Lending a car to someone who doesn’t have a licence
Discussion
Like all things. It depends...
If person B is a trusted friend and produces convincing (but ultimately fake documents) purporting to be licence etc.
They have deceived you. IIRC you have to conduct due diligence/reasonable checks..
Being deceived by convincing fake documents might be a sufficient defence for an offence of permitting no insurance..
The court will decide.. Taking their word for it probably wouldn't be sufficient.
If person B is a trusted friend and produces convincing (but ultimately fake documents) purporting to be licence etc.
They have deceived you. IIRC you have to conduct due diligence/reasonable checks..
Being deceived by convincing fake documents might be a sufficient defence for an offence of permitting no insurance..
The court will decide.. Taking their word for it probably wouldn't be sufficient.
CharlieH89 said:
Should person A gets points?
Whether Person A could be liable for causing or permitting would largely depend on whether they made it an express condition of the loan that Person B held a valid licence and would provide their own insurance.If Person B failed to comply with any such conditions, then permission for the loan was not granted and Person A shouldn't be liable.
No such rabbit hole for Person A if they merely assumed that Person B held a valid licence and was insured.
No. Utterly disgusting.
Do you people actually have good friends?
Assume you do. Can you imagine asking one of them - “ok great Bob, thanks for looking after my children yesterday pal - and yeah of course you can borrow my car but I don’t believe you that you have a license so if you can just pop me a quick photocopy of it, I’ll place that on file in case you get pulled and the very fabric of our friendship is called into question...”
It’s ridiculous and the person doing the driving should get 100% of the penalties
Do you people actually have good friends?
Assume you do. Can you imagine asking one of them - “ok great Bob, thanks for looking after my children yesterday pal - and yeah of course you can borrow my car but I don’t believe you that you have a license so if you can just pop me a quick photocopy of it, I’ll place that on file in case you get pulled and the very fabric of our friendship is called into question...”
It’s ridiculous and the person doing the driving should get 100% of the penalties
Julian Thompson said:
No. Utterly disgusting.
Do you people actually have good friends?
Assume you do. Can you imagine asking one of them - “ok great Bob, thanks for looking after my children yesterday pal - and yeah of course you can borrow my car but I don’t believe you that you have a license so if you can just pop me a quick photocopy of it, I’ll place that on file in case you get pulled and the very fabric of our friendship is called into question...”
It’s ridiculous and the person doing the driving should get 100% of the penalties
I've always been of that belief but unfortunately the law doesn't work that way. I guess otherwise everyone would use it as a defence. Do you people actually have good friends?
Assume you do. Can you imagine asking one of them - “ok great Bob, thanks for looking after my children yesterday pal - and yeah of course you can borrow my car but I don’t believe you that you have a license so if you can just pop me a quick photocopy of it, I’ll place that on file in case you get pulled and the very fabric of our friendship is called into question...”
It’s ridiculous and the person doing the driving should get 100% of the penalties
Julian Thompson said:
No. Utterly disgusting.
Do you people actually have good friends?
Assume you do. Can you imagine asking one of them - “ok great Bob, thanks for looking after my children yesterday pal - and yeah of course you can borrow my car but I don’t believe you that you have a license so if you can just pop me a quick photocopy of it, I’ll place that on file in case you get pulled and the very fabric of our friendship is called into question...”
It’s ridiculous and the person doing the driving should get 100% of the penalties
So say no, then. Why should society be the one to bear the risks of the trust, or lack of, in your friendships?Do you people actually have good friends?
Assume you do. Can you imagine asking one of them - “ok great Bob, thanks for looking after my children yesterday pal - and yeah of course you can borrow my car but I don’t believe you that you have a license so if you can just pop me a quick photocopy of it, I’ll place that on file in case you get pulled and the very fabric of our friendship is called into question...”
It’s ridiculous and the person doing the driving should get 100% of the penalties
JxJ Jr. said:
Julian Thompson said:
No. Utterly disgusting.
Do you people actually have good friends?
Assume you do. Can you imagine asking one of them - “ok great Bob, thanks for looking after my children yesterday pal - and yeah of course you can borrow my car but I don’t believe you that you have a license so if you can just pop me a quick photocopy of it, I’ll place that on file in case you get pulled and the very fabric of our friendship is called into question...”
It’s ridiculous and the person doing the driving should get 100% of the penalties
So say no, then. Why should society be the one to bear the risks of the trust, or lack of, in your friendships?Do you people actually have good friends?
Assume you do. Can you imagine asking one of them - “ok great Bob, thanks for looking after my children yesterday pal - and yeah of course you can borrow my car but I don’t believe you that you have a license so if you can just pop me a quick photocopy of it, I’ll place that on file in case you get pulled and the very fabric of our friendship is called into question...”
It’s ridiculous and the person doing the driving should get 100% of the penalties
My assumption is that if you trust someone enough to borrow a car or be a good friend or look after your kids you would expect them to ensure that they are legally allowed to drive your vehicle.
If I hand the keys to a friend who tells me he is within the drink driving limit, tells me he has a valid license, tells me he is insured, why am
I culpable for ensuing offence?
It’s the responsibility of the driver to ensure that he or she is legally eligible to drive otherwise contrary to the former suggestion everyone could use the “you said it’s ok” excuse!
If I tell you to jump off a bridge, would you? Is it my fault you choose to shoot someone with a borrowed gun?
Edited by Julian Thompson on Sunday 20th October 20:42
from a friends experience plod will come back and robustly question you about whether the friend did indeed tell you they had insurance etc, and if you are adamant that they did tell you they had it then they will charge the driver with twoc alongside everything else, and they gave my lending friend the choice between not having the borrowee charged with twoc, but the lender would be charged with allowing the vehicle to be used without insurance or the lender getting off with any charges but the borrower getting charged with twoc.
Julian Thompson said:
I think you’re missing my sarcasm.
My assumption is that if you trust someone enough to borrow a car or be a good friend or look after your kids you would expect them to ensure that they are legally allowed to drive your vehicle.
If I hand the keys to a friend who tells me he is within the drink driving limit, tells me he has a valid license, tells me he is insured, why am
I culpable for ensuing offence?
If I tell you to jump off a bridge, would you?
Now you know it's an offence, I'm sure you'd make doubly sure of all the relevant requirments, if you were ever to lend you car out in the future... My assumption is that if you trust someone enough to borrow a car or be a good friend or look after your kids you would expect them to ensure that they are legally allowed to drive your vehicle.
If I hand the keys to a friend who tells me he is within the drink driving limit, tells me he has a valid license, tells me he is insured, why am
I culpable for ensuing offence?
If I tell you to jump off a bridge, would you?
I once represented a police inspector who was fired for several things, one of which was lending his car to someone without adequately checking that the borrower was insured to drive the car. That person happened to be a low grade drug dealer whose brother (also a low grade drug dealer) the inspector was bezzy mates with, so my client had many problems apart from car lending ones.
All depends on the facts. The extent of checking required would vary according to context.
BTW, here is me (oops, my friend) getting burned for lending my (friend's) car to an unlicensed driver, but that happened in a place that is by and large a lawless place (it has lots of big ticket commercial law, which is I why I (my friend) am/is there, but is otherwise anarchic). Consequences, a USD 1200 repair bill for me (oops, my friend).
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
All depends on the facts. The extent of checking required would vary according to context.
BTW, here is me (oops, my friend) getting burned for lending my (friend's) car to an unlicensed driver, but that happened in a place that is by and large a lawless place (it has lots of big ticket commercial law, which is I why I (my friend) am/is there, but is otherwise anarchic). Consequences, a USD 1200 repair bill for me (oops, my friend).
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 20th October 21:38
The law on this strikes me as pretty sensible. People should check before lending dangerous lumps of metal to other people. When I got it wrong, luckily I was the only loser on the deal. (Sorry, my friend was,yadda yadda)
PS: Old lawyer gag - "Everyone is presumed to know the law, except for Her Majesty's Judges, from whom there is a right of appeal."
PS: Old lawyer gag - "Everyone is presumed to know the law, except for Her Majesty's Judges, from whom there is a right of appeal."
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 20th October 21:39
Julian Thompson said:
JxJ Jr. said:
Julian Thompson said:
No. Utterly disgusting.
Do you people actually have good friends?
Assume you do. Can you imagine asking one of them - “ok great Bob, thanks for looking after my children yesterday pal - and yeah of course you can borrow my car but I don’t believe you that you have a license so if you can just pop me a quick photocopy of it, I’ll place that on file in case you get pulled and the very fabric of our friendship is called into question...”
It’s ridiculous and the person doing the driving should get 100% of the penalties
So say no, then. Why should society be the one to bear the risks of the trust, or lack of, in your friendships?Do you people actually have good friends?
Assume you do. Can you imagine asking one of them - “ok great Bob, thanks for looking after my children yesterday pal - and yeah of course you can borrow my car but I don’t believe you that you have a license so if you can just pop me a quick photocopy of it, I’ll place that on file in case you get pulled and the very fabric of our friendship is called into question...”
It’s ridiculous and the person doing the driving should get 100% of the penalties
My assumption is that if you trust someone enough to borrow a car or be a good friend or look after your kids you would expect them to ensure that they are legally allowed to drive your vehicle.
If I hand the keys to a friend who tells me he is within the drink driving limit, tells me he has a valid license, tells me he is insured, why am
I culpable for ensuing offence?
It’s the responsibility of the driver to ensure that he or she is legally eligible to drive otherwise contrary to the former suggestion everyone could use the “you said it’s ok” excuse!
If I tell you to jump off a bridge, would you? Is it my fault you choose to shoot someone with a borrowed gun?
TBH I think you might be missing that no one has said that the lender should get points instead of the borrower, it's both. By failing to do any or insufficient checks you enable them, you're not fully responsible but you contribute.
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