Time to get rid of private parking cowboys?
Discussion
Well for all those posters defending the use of private parking companies on a recent thread, and for those of you who simply just roll over and pay up then I am afraid you are personally and directly supporting the abhorrent work and continuing greed of this bunch of absolute shysters.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/03/the-...
I understand that parking fines occasionally need to be issued, but I also thing that any system employed to monitor parking should be straightforward to use, fair and proportional. Therefore with behavior like this, isn't it about time something was done about this absolute and total racket? There is talk of forthcoming government regulation but will this be enough to tame the monster?
Interesting society we live in isn't it when repeat shoplifters will frequently get off with a caution, however someone who fails to display the correct pass on their windscreen when parked, or overstays in a car park by even a few seconds can be legally hounded to the grave!
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/03/the-...
I understand that parking fines occasionally need to be issued, but I also thing that any system employed to monitor parking should be straightforward to use, fair and proportional. Therefore with behavior like this, isn't it about time something was done about this absolute and total racket? There is talk of forthcoming government regulation but will this be enough to tame the monster?
Interesting society we live in isn't it when repeat shoplifters will frequently get off with a caution, however someone who fails to display the correct pass on their windscreen when parked, or overstays in a car park by even a few seconds can be legally hounded to the grave!
Andy20vt said:
Well for all those posters defending the use of private parking companies on a recent thread, and for those of you who simply just roll over and pay up then I am afraid you are personally and directly supporting the abhorrent work and continuing greed of this bunch of absolute shysters.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/03/the-...
I understand that parking fines occasionally need to be issued, but I also thing that any system employed to monitor parking should be straightforward to use, fair and proportional. Therefore with behavior like this, isn't it about time something was done about this absolute and total racket? There is talk of forthcoming government regulation but will this be enough to tame the monster?
Interesting society we live in isn't it when repeat shoplifters will frequently get off with a caution, however someone who fails to display the correct pass on their windscreen when parked, or overstays in a car park by even a few seconds can be legally hounded to the grave!
How do you get rid of private parking companies and deal with the need to issue parking fines to deter illegal parking, especially on private land. I think the answer is more regulation coupled with, a far more punitive and independent parking appeal system, something a government could do. If, instead of just getting the ticket cancelled, a successful appeal led to a significant payment to the applicant, it might improve things. Also if after the notice and reminders the parking companies need to go to the tribunal, before being able to pursue the debt, which would now include the cost of the tribunal. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/03/the-...
I understand that parking fines occasionally need to be issued, but I also thing that any system employed to monitor parking should be straightforward to use, fair and proportional. Therefore with behavior like this, isn't it about time something was done about this absolute and total racket? There is talk of forthcoming government regulation but will this be enough to tame the monster?
Interesting society we live in isn't it when repeat shoplifters will frequently get off with a caution, however someone who fails to display the correct pass on their windscreen when parked, or overstays in a car park by even a few seconds can be legally hounded to the grave!
I would though, stop all the silly technical issues about the wording of notices, given that parking illegally on private land also needs to be stopped and can be just as upsetting as some of the things these companies do. I know it's not a fine and it's a contract etc etc. That's nonsense and a fudge it needs simplifying and to reflect reality.
Edited by Graveworm on Monday 4th November 09:45
Graveworm said:
How do you get rid of private parking companies and deal with the need to issue parking fines to deter illegal parking, especially on private land. I think the answer is more regulation coupled with, a far more punitive and independent parking appeal system, something a government could do. If, instead of just getting the ticket cancelled, a successful appeal led to a significant payment to the applicant, it might improve things.
I would though, stop all the silly technical issues about the wording of notices, given that parking illegally on private land also needs to be stopped and can be just as upsetting as some of the things these companies do. I know it's not a fine and it's a contract etc etc. That's nonsense and a fudge it needs simplifying and to reflect reality.
The legislation went through earlier this year to start the process of a central Code of Practice, but it is still early days on how it will pan out. https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/private...I would though, stop all the silly technical issues about the wording of notices, given that parking illegally on private land also needs to be stopped and can be just as upsetting as some of the things these companies do. I know it's not a fine and it's a contract etc etc. That's nonsense and a fudge it needs simplifying and to reflect reality.
Currently, each ticket that goes to POPLA/IAS costs the operator around £30 if it goes to adjudication, however in many cases the operator simply decides not to contest it, saving themselves that cost. It is still an unnecessary hoop for the motorist to jump through though, and indicates that the operator is aware that their charge is invalid for one or more reasons.
The "technical" challenges on wording is no different to any other piece of legislation - these operators have had 7 years to get it right, but they don't because compliance with the legislation would significantly reduce their revenue. By operating outside of the legal framework allows them to maximise the charges they extract from motorists.
It is as simple as that.
So if anyone is happy to line the pockets of fraudsters and scammers, who am I to stop them, but I have a customer focused business to help protect.
If we roll over and pay these charges, it makes us as bad the parking companies, arguably worse, because any right of appeal vanishes upon payment.
Graveworm said:
Andy20vt said:
Well for all those posters defending the use of private parking companies on a recent thread, and for those of you who simply just roll over and pay up then I am afraid you are personally and directly supporting the abhorrent work and continuing greed of this bunch of absolute shysters.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/03/the-...
I understand that parking fines occasionally need to be issued, but I also thing that any system employed to monitor parking should be straightforward to use, fair and proportional. Therefore with behavior like this, isn't it about time something was done about this absolute and total racket? There is talk of forthcoming government regulation but will this be enough to tame the monster?
Interesting society we live in isn't it when repeat shoplifters will frequently get off with a caution, however someone who fails to display the correct pass on their windscreen when parked, or overstays in a car park by even a few seconds can be legally hounded to the grave!
How do you get rid of private parking companies and deal with the need to issue parking fines to deter illegal parking, especially on private land. I think the answer is more regulation coupled with, a far more punitive and independent parking appeal system, something a government could do. If, instead of just getting the ticket cancelled, a successful appeal led to a significant payment to the applicant, it might improve things. Also if after the notice and reminders the parking companies need to go to the tribunal, before being able to pursue the debt, which would now include the cost of the tribunal. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/03/the-...
I understand that parking fines occasionally need to be issued, but I also thing that any system employed to monitor parking should be straightforward to use, fair and proportional. Therefore with behavior like this, isn't it about time something was done about this absolute and total racket? There is talk of forthcoming government regulation but will this be enough to tame the monster?
Interesting society we live in isn't it when repeat shoplifters will frequently get off with a caution, however someone who fails to display the correct pass on their windscreen when parked, or overstays in a car park by even a few seconds can be legally hounded to the grave!
I would though, stop all the silly technical issues about the wording of notices, given that parking illegally on private land also needs to be stopped and can be just as upsetting as some of the things these companies do. I know it's not a fine and it's a contract etc etc. That's nonsense and a fudge it needs simplifying and to reflect reality.
Edited by Graveworm on Monday 4th November 09:45
ts (some not all) and expect to get away with it, unfortunately without this type of company there would be even more parking chaos with people parking wherever they like.No one should be able to access the name and address of the vehicle keeper if that keeper decides their details should remain private.
This is the situation in NZ. Any individual can "opt out".
Vehicles registered to companies cannot opt out, so we just register to individuals. The database here is "registered owner", not the legal owner.
The registered owner is then liable for various offences.
Private parking companies can then FRO. Never paid a single private parking ticket here, never will. (It's much easier now with opting out).
This is the situation in NZ. Any individual can "opt out".
Vehicles registered to companies cannot opt out, so we just register to individuals. The database here is "registered owner", not the legal owner.
The registered owner is then liable for various offences.
Private parking companies can then FRO. Never paid a single private parking ticket here, never will. (It's much easier now with opting out).
S11Steve said:
The legislation went through earlier this year to start the process of a central Code of Practice, but it is still early days on how it will pan out. https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/private...
Currently, each ticket that goes to POPLA/IAS costs the operator around £30 if it goes to adjudication, however in many cases the operator simply decides not to contest it, saving themselves that cost. It is still an unnecessary hoop for the motorist to jump through though, and indicates that the operator is aware that their charge is invalid for one or more reasons.
The "technical" challenges on wording is no different to any other piece of legislation - these operators have had 7 years to get it right, but they don't because compliance with the legislation would significantly reduce their revenue. By operating outside of the legal framework allows them to maximise the charges they extract from motorists.
It is as simple as that.
So if anyone is happy to line the pockets of fraudsters and scammers, who am I to stop them, but I have a customer focused business to help protect.
If we roll over and pay these charges, it makes us as bad the parking companies, arguably worse, because any right of appeal vanishes upon payment.
Some may be scammers and fraudsters. Doing something, that is wrong and incurs a debt then not paying, because the legal path to enforcing that debt is flawed, is dishonorable and could equally be called a scam. That is distinct from something that may mean the debt was not incurred in the first place irrespective of if you think some may also be scammers. Currently, each ticket that goes to POPLA/IAS costs the operator around £30 if it goes to adjudication, however in many cases the operator simply decides not to contest it, saving themselves that cost. It is still an unnecessary hoop for the motorist to jump through though, and indicates that the operator is aware that their charge is invalid for one or more reasons.
The "technical" challenges on wording is no different to any other piece of legislation - these operators have had 7 years to get it right, but they don't because compliance with the legislation would significantly reduce their revenue. By operating outside of the legal framework allows them to maximise the charges they extract from motorists.
It is as simple as that.
So if anyone is happy to line the pockets of fraudsters and scammers, who am I to stop them, but I have a customer focused business to help protect.
If we roll over and pay these charges, it makes us as bad the parking companies, arguably worse, because any right of appeal vanishes upon payment.
Its compounded by the fact that the law should be straightforward. No contracts accepted by parking. If, you allow your car to be parked on private land, you have to ensure that you have permission or the land owner or their agent can charge, from a scale of centrally set charges.
This could even, possibly, be linked to the value of the car to make it progressive. As I said the process should be if the car driver doesn't pay then the appeal process has to be instigated by the land owner/agent to enforce the charge. Failure would lead to a punitive charge to the landowner/agent , way more than £30.
Edited by Graveworm on Monday 4th November 10:33
eybic said:
This is the issue, people park like tts (some not all) and expect to get away with it, unfortunately without this type of company there would be even more parking chaos with people parking wherever they like.
Not necessarily - but this is the hype that the parking industry want people to believe for them to maintain their operations. The private parking laws don't apply in Scotland or Northern Ireland, and there isn't parking Armageddon there.ts (some not all) and expect to get away with it, unfortunately without this type of company there would be even more parking chaos with people parking wherever they like.Retail parks and supermarkets operated for decades before the parking companies infested them,
I'm not saying that there are no issues whatsoever, but 9m charges being issued a year? You believe that every single onw of them is valid and just?
Graveworm said:
Some may be scammers and fraudsters. Doing something, that is wrong and incurs a debt then not paying, because the legal path to enforcing that debt is flawed, is dishonorable and could equally be called a scam. That is distinct from something that may mean the debt was not incurred in the first place irrespective of if you think some may also be scammers.
Its compounded by the fact that the law should be straightforward. No contracts accepted by parking. If, you allow your car to be parked on private land, you have to ensure that you have permission or the land owner or their agent can charge, from a scale of centrally set charges.
This could even, possibly, be linked to the value of the car to make it progressive. As I said the process should be if the car driver doesn't pay then the appeal process has to be instigated by the land owner/agent to enforce the charge. Failure would lead to a punitive charge to the driver, way more than £30.
A penalty then? Which is not permissable by private companies.Its compounded by the fact that the law should be straightforward. No contracts accepted by parking. If, you allow your car to be parked on private land, you have to ensure that you have permission or the land owner or their agent can charge, from a scale of centrally set charges.
This could even, possibly, be linked to the value of the car to make it progressive. As I said the process should be if the car driver doesn't pay then the appeal process has to be instigated by the land owner/agent to enforce the charge. Failure would lead to a punitive charge to the driver, way more than £30.
Imagine if they had something to be able to allow the landowners recourse for using land without permission. It would be great. They could even call it something like trespassing or similar.....
S11Steve said:
eybic said:
This is the issue, people park like tts (some not all) and expect to get away with it, unfortunately without this type of company there would be even more parking chaos with people parking wherever they like.
Not necessarily - but this is the hype that the parking industry want people to believe for them to maintain their operations. The private parking laws don't apply in Scotland or Northern Ireland, and there isn't parking Armageddon there.ts (some not all) and expect to get away with it, unfortunately without this type of company there would be even more parking chaos with people parking wherever they like.Retail parks and supermarkets operated for decades before the parking companies infested them,
I'm not saying that there are no issues whatsoever, but 9m charges being issued a year? You believe that every single onw of them is valid and just?
I manage a large property which has a car park with 60 spaces, with 50 of them in use and 10 disabled and visitors spaces, every day without fail there have been up to 15 unauthorised cars in the car park, meaning that the permitted users of the car park cannot park their vehicles, due to the layout and access to adjoining properties a barrier system would not be practicable so we have had to employ the services of one of the large PPC's to police it and issue tickets as there are no other ways to deter the problem parkers.
So far its working, people see the cameras and signs and go elsewhere, we have had a couple of wrongly issued tickets that we have cancelled, but the system for us works.
We have no option but to use them, people are selfish self entitled tossers at times unfortunately.
So far its working, people see the cameras and signs and go elsewhere, we have had a couple of wrongly issued tickets that we have cancelled, but the system for us works.
We have no option but to use them, people are selfish self entitled tossers at times unfortunately.
pavarotti1980 said:
Graveworm said:
Some may be scammers and fraudsters. Doing something, that is wrong and incurs a debt then not paying, because the legal path to enforcing that debt is flawed, is dishonorable and could equally be called a scam. That is distinct from something that may mean the debt was not incurred in the first place irrespective of if you think some may also be scammers.
Its compounded by the fact that the law should be straightforward. No contracts accepted by parking. If, you allow your car to be parked on private land, you have to ensure that you have permission or the land owner or their agent can charge, from a scale of centrally set charges.
This could even, possibly, be linked to the value of the car to make it progressive. As I said the process should be if the car driver doesn't pay then the appeal process has to be instigated by the land owner/agent to enforce the charge. Failure would lead to a punitive charge to the driver, way more than £30.
A penalty then? Which is not permissable by private companies.Its compounded by the fact that the law should be straightforward. No contracts accepted by parking. If, you allow your car to be parked on private land, you have to ensure that you have permission or the land owner or their agent can charge, from a scale of centrally set charges.
This could even, possibly, be linked to the value of the car to make it progressive. As I said the process should be if the car driver doesn't pay then the appeal process has to be instigated by the land owner/agent to enforce the charge. Failure would lead to a punitive charge to the driver, way more than £30.
Imagine if they had something to be able to allow the landowners recourse for using land without permission. It would be great. They could even call it something like trespassing or similar.....
Edited by Graveworm on Monday 4th November 10:37
Graveworm said:
Civil trespass is a nightmare and needs to establish driver etc how does a landowner sue 15 people a day for instance.
Well thats something for the landowner to come up with but a PPC with no authority and not following the legislation isnt really a good enough solution is it?Legislate it in line with local authority prices for PCNs if current legislative frameworks are not workable
pavarotti1980 said:
Graveworm said:
Sorry I meant to the landowner/agent
Yeah the landowner can sue for trespassFailure, would lead to the cost of the tribunal and a punitive payment to the keeper being made by the landowner/agent. Only once the tribunal finds in their favour would an enforceable debt exist, which would include cost of the tribunal.
pavarotti1980 said:
Well thats something for the landowner to come up with but a PPC with no authority and not following the legislation isnt really a good enough solution is it?
Legislate it in line with local authority prices for PCNs if current legislative frameworks are not workable
We ended up with all the problems because the victims needed a solution. These led to contracts accepted by parking, clamping removals Etc. They could be lawful but were awful. The current situation arose to stop the bad practices and balance both sides. It's still bad but it needs fixing not just allowing anyone unscrupulous enough to park anywhere. Legislate it in line with local authority prices for PCNs if current legislative frameworks are not workable
Edited by Graveworm on Monday 4th November 10:51
Dave Hedgehog said:
problem is there is a need to deal with the entitled selfish pricks who think they can park anywhere
Agreed however it is clear that the current system is not working. Those that park anywhere without a care are probably the very same people who probably don't give a toss about a windscreen ticket. Meanwhile the draconian system we currently have seems to impact hardest the vast majority of honest motorists who have made a genuine mistake, or those where the car parking company has made a mistake (or a deliberate/fraudulent attempt to entrap or mislead the motorist by the parking company). Surely this can't be allowed to continue?
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