Classic Car Engine issue...
Discussion
Gents
Circa 4 weeks ago I purchased a classic coupe with a twin cam on factory twin Weber’s.
I bought this from a high end reputable specialist dealer and paid top money. I have no problem with this as the car is in very good unrestored condition. I know enough about classics to know a good car.
It has a documented 70k Miles. The weather’s been grim so I’ve not ventured out in it. Today I decided to go for a short run and see what it drives like. It drives very well although I noticed after a short while it doesn’t idle well. It’s lumpy and it hunts. The whole car sort of shakes/wobbles at 1000rpm!
I drove up to a guy I know who tunes old classics to seek his thoughts and hopefully dial it in. I was thinking the carbs were out of balance.
He had a look and pulled the oil filler cap and there was pretty noticeable blow by venting out. So out came the plugs to give it a compression test. Although I sort of knew what was coming...
The readings weren’t satisfactory. The engine should have a minimum really of 180-185 and we were seeing 140/150 right across. So the rings/pots are undeniably tired.
He had a fiddle with the mixture screws and balance screw but it still wobbled away. The car goes ok but doesn’t punch down the road like a 2 litre should. Now I know why.
Obviously it won’t with soft compressions. How much life is left in it? Basically it’s worn out. We can assume it will only get worse. I was toying with a trip to the Riviera. I don’t really fancy that run right now to be honest.
So where do I stand? I bought in good faith and paid a very punchy price for an excellent example. From where I’m sitting the car should have a strong tip top motor.
These engines are not too expensive to rebuild. In fact a set of pistons and liners can be done in situ. The oil pressure is ok.
I welcome your thoughts.
Circa 4 weeks ago I purchased a classic coupe with a twin cam on factory twin Weber’s.
I bought this from a high end reputable specialist dealer and paid top money. I have no problem with this as the car is in very good unrestored condition. I know enough about classics to know a good car.
It has a documented 70k Miles. The weather’s been grim so I’ve not ventured out in it. Today I decided to go for a short run and see what it drives like. It drives very well although I noticed after a short while it doesn’t idle well. It’s lumpy and it hunts. The whole car sort of shakes/wobbles at 1000rpm!
I drove up to a guy I know who tunes old classics to seek his thoughts and hopefully dial it in. I was thinking the carbs were out of balance.
He had a look and pulled the oil filler cap and there was pretty noticeable blow by venting out. So out came the plugs to give it a compression test. Although I sort of knew what was coming...
The readings weren’t satisfactory. The engine should have a minimum really of 180-185 and we were seeing 140/150 right across. So the rings/pots are undeniably tired.
He had a fiddle with the mixture screws and balance screw but it still wobbled away. The car goes ok but doesn’t punch down the road like a 2 litre should. Now I know why.
Obviously it won’t with soft compressions. How much life is left in it? Basically it’s worn out. We can assume it will only get worse. I was toying with a trip to the Riviera. I don’t really fancy that run right now to be honest.
So where do I stand? I bought in good faith and paid a very punchy price for an excellent example. From where I’m sitting the car should have a strong tip top motor.
These engines are not too expensive to rebuild. In fact a set of pistons and liners can be done in situ. The oil pressure is ok.
I welcome your thoughts.
Edited by W11PEL on Friday 31st January 17:31
Classic or not it shouldn't matter if sold as a road car I think.
I'd approach the garage with the findings and look for a resolution , perhaps as you trust the garage who tested it suggest that it's done there at their expense.
They could argue it's wear and tear and expected of an older car potentially.
I'd approach the garage with the findings and look for a resolution , perhaps as you trust the garage who tested it suggest that it's done there at their expense.
They could argue it's wear and tear and expected of an older car potentially.
How confident are you in the compression testing equipment and procedure?
The key is normally to look for differences across the cylinders rather than absolutes since there are a multitude of factors that can affect the readings. It sounds like you have consistent compression across the board which is good.
Was a leakdown test carried out? This is probably a better indicator of blow-by and/or valve sealing problems.
I'd be careful steaming into the dealer until you are absolutely confident on your findings ....
The key is normally to look for differences across the cylinders rather than absolutes since there are a multitude of factors that can affect the readings. It sounds like you have consistent compression across the board which is good.
Was a leakdown test carried out? This is probably a better indicator of blow-by and/or valve sealing problems.
I'd be careful steaming into the dealer until you are absolutely confident on your findings ....
jeremyc said:
How confident are you in the compression testing equipment and procedure?
The key is normally to look for differences across the cylinders rather than absolutes since there are a multitude of factors that can affect the readings. It sounds like you have consistent compression across the board which is good.
Was a leakdown test carried out? This is probably a better indicator of blow-by and/or valve sealing problems.
I'd be careful steaming into the dealer until you are absolutely confident on your findings ....
We went over the cylinders a couple of times.The key is normally to look for differences across the cylinders rather than absolutes since there are a multitude of factors that can affect the readings. It sounds like you have consistent compression across the board which is good.
Was a leakdown test carried out? This is probably a better indicator of blow-by and/or valve sealing problems.
I'd be careful steaming into the dealer until you are absolutely confident on your findings ....
There is noticeable blow by. The compressions are low. The head was rebuilt 3k miles ago.
The equal low compressions illustrate a uniformly worn engine. That fact in my book is established.
My question is what is the obligation of the dealer given I paid top money.
Edited by W11PEL on Friday 31st January 17:49
jeremyc said:
The key is normally to look for differences across the cylinders rather than absolutes since there are a multitude of factors that can affect the readings. It sounds like you have consistent compression across the board which is good.
Years ago you could get this from a Suntester machine as the cylinder with low compression required less effort from the starter to get it through the compression stroke.What car is it? Might also be worth indicating approximately what you paid (if you don't mind)
If it's an Alfa Nord 2.0 I wouldn't be worried about running down to the Riviera - or anywhere else for that matter - I've got a couple which are on the rebuild list but still get regular enthusiatic outings. They're not indestructible but they are pretty tough.
If it's an Alfa Nord 2.0 I wouldn't be worried about running down to the Riviera - or anywhere else for that matter - I've got a couple which are on the rebuild list but still get regular enthusiatic outings. They're not indestructible but they are pretty tough.
I would disagree the cause of the lumpiness is your even bore readings.
Twin 40’s will take at least an hour to set up properly with the correct equipment, twiddling screws will throw them out even more.
I would get the carbs setup first and go from there, by someone who knows what they are doing.
Twin 40’s will take at least an hour to set up properly with the correct equipment, twiddling screws will throw them out even more.
I would get the carbs setup first and go from there, by someone who knows what they are doing.
The Consumer Rights Act sets out the required standards that goods, such as a classic car, must conform to. Goods must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described.
Satisfactory quality: The classic car should be of a standard a reasonable person would expect, taking into account factors such as age, value, history, mileage, make, durability, safety and description. What constitutes “satisfactory quality” for a classic car can be hard to decide and will vary depending on the facts. For example, a consumer paying £150,000 for a Jaguar XK150 described as being in “concours condition” can reasonably expect it to be of far greater quality than a similar car sold for £30,000 and described as a “restoration project”.
Fit for purpose: Fit for purpose means that the classic car must be usable for the purposes that you would normally expect. This includes any particular purpose the dealer knew about – for example, classic car racing. Classic car enthusiasts will be well aware that at auction, the terms and conditions will usually state that all vehicles are sold as collectors’ items and not modes of transport. When buying from a dealer, buyers should watch out for similar problematic terms and conditions and make any specific intentions for the classic car known.
As described: The classic car must also be as described. This means it must fit any verbal or written descriptions which the dealer has provided. A large proportion of classic car disputes arise from alleged misrepresentation. Deciding whether a classic car matches its description is not always easy if a dispute arises. If a consumer wants to make sure that the classic car he/she is purchasing has a particular provenance, is a specific model or is made from original parts, he/she should specifically ask the dealer.
Satisfactory quality: The classic car should be of a standard a reasonable person would expect, taking into account factors such as age, value, history, mileage, make, durability, safety and description. What constitutes “satisfactory quality” for a classic car can be hard to decide and will vary depending on the facts. For example, a consumer paying £150,000 for a Jaguar XK150 described as being in “concours condition” can reasonably expect it to be of far greater quality than a similar car sold for £30,000 and described as a “restoration project”.
Fit for purpose: Fit for purpose means that the classic car must be usable for the purposes that you would normally expect. This includes any particular purpose the dealer knew about – for example, classic car racing. Classic car enthusiasts will be well aware that at auction, the terms and conditions will usually state that all vehicles are sold as collectors’ items and not modes of transport. When buying from a dealer, buyers should watch out for similar problematic terms and conditions and make any specific intentions for the classic car known.
As described: The classic car must also be as described. This means it must fit any verbal or written descriptions which the dealer has provided. A large proportion of classic car disputes arise from alleged misrepresentation. Deciding whether a classic car matches its description is not always easy if a dispute arises. If a consumer wants to make sure that the classic car he/she is purchasing has a particular provenance, is a specific model or is made from original parts, he/she should specifically ask the dealer.
W11PEL said:
Gents
I know enough about classics to know a good car.
Are you sure about that? The fact that you did not check for bad running, or do the very basics such as lifting the oil filler to cap to check for mayonnaise or excessive venting says otherwise. I know enough about classics to know a good car.
Edited by W11PEL on Friday 31st January 17:31
You were well tucked up.
Aluminati said:
I would disagree the cause of the lumpiness is your even bore readings.
Twin 40’s will take at least an hour to set up properly with the correct equipment, twiddling screws will throw them out even more.
I would get the carbs setup first and go from there, by someone who knows what they are doing.
My lotus cortina with very low mileage did the same. Stripped, ultra sonically cleaned and put back together with new seals ad gaskets cured the problem. Twin 40’s will take at least an hour to set up properly with the correct equipment, twiddling screws will throw them out even more.
I would get the carbs setup first and go from there, by someone who knows what they are doing.
WJNB said:
W11PEL said:
Gents
I know enough about classics to know a good car.
Are you sure about that? The fact that you did not check for bad running, or do the very basics such as lifting the oil filler to cap to check for mayonnaise or excessive venting says otherwise. I know enough about classics to know a good car.
Edited by W11PEL on Friday 31st January 17:31
You were well tucked up.
Hmmmm..... Sounds like a touch of buyers remorse here, probably owing to the high purchase price. Personally, I would have said that a classic on 70k miles would be expected to have a pretty well worn engine.... This is from the era when cars were done by the time they got to 100k (IF they even did!). If you've bought an 'original' car I wouldn't expect it to have a rebuilt engine in top health - it'll be as worn as the rest of it commensurate with mileage.... I don't see the dealer as on the hook for this - they've sold the car in good faith and fairly described by the sounds of it. It sounds like a survivor, not a restored car. By all means approach them with your findings and ask them for their opinion and investigation, but I wouldn't expect much beyond that.
If it's on twin webers at 70k miles, they'll be well worn too (unless they've been rebuilt) and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is slop in the spindles and they're even more difficult than normal to set up and balance satisfactorily. They are, by their nature, often pretty lumpy down low....
Lest we forget, this is NOT a new or indeed restored car....
If you wanted something to jump in and do big trips in and touring in then possibly a restored car may have been more suited, however you'd miss out on all the charm and appeal of the original..... It's a dilemma for sure. I've done both - bought the best original cars, through low mileage survivors, to honest usable machines, right down to the worst examples of the breed knowing I would be restoring and they've all had their plus and minus points.
If it were me, I'd enjoy your car as it is for what it is. Accept the fact it isn't in first flush of youth as it can't possibly be, revel in it's wonderful condition and originality and live with and enjoy the foibles and character it shows. Use it and enjoy it for what you'd intended and IF or when it needs mechanical work attend to it as needed. It doesn't sound like the engine is anywhere near needing a rebuild with those even compression figures to me.... If they were well sub-100 I'd be more concerned. Never has the old adage of 'don't fix what isn't broke' been more applicable than with classic cars. I would counsel against falling into the trap so many new custodians do of taking something apart to fix something that doesn't really need fixing as it invariably leads to a long and tortuous (read expensive) winding road of rebuilding lots of other associated or reciprocal parts 'while you are in there' and you spend all the months when you should be using and enjoying your new steed writing cheques to someone else whilst it's off the road.....
Bury the remorse and rejoice in the reality that you have a very fine example of a coveted car that still sets the pulse racing when you look at it (it does, right?). The car is what it is. Use it, enjoy it and fall in love with it.....
If it's on twin webers at 70k miles, they'll be well worn too (unless they've been rebuilt) and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is slop in the spindles and they're even more difficult than normal to set up and balance satisfactorily. They are, by their nature, often pretty lumpy down low....
Lest we forget, this is NOT a new or indeed restored car....
If you wanted something to jump in and do big trips in and touring in then possibly a restored car may have been more suited, however you'd miss out on all the charm and appeal of the original..... It's a dilemma for sure. I've done both - bought the best original cars, through low mileage survivors, to honest usable machines, right down to the worst examples of the breed knowing I would be restoring and they've all had their plus and minus points.
If it were me, I'd enjoy your car as it is for what it is. Accept the fact it isn't in first flush of youth as it can't possibly be, revel in it's wonderful condition and originality and live with and enjoy the foibles and character it shows. Use it and enjoy it for what you'd intended and IF or when it needs mechanical work attend to it as needed. It doesn't sound like the engine is anywhere near needing a rebuild with those even compression figures to me.... If they were well sub-100 I'd be more concerned. Never has the old adage of 'don't fix what isn't broke' been more applicable than with classic cars. I would counsel against falling into the trap so many new custodians do of taking something apart to fix something that doesn't really need fixing as it invariably leads to a long and tortuous (read expensive) winding road of rebuilding lots of other associated or reciprocal parts 'while you are in there' and you spend all the months when you should be using and enjoying your new steed writing cheques to someone else whilst it's off the road.....
Bury the remorse and rejoice in the reality that you have a very fine example of a coveted car that still sets the pulse racing when you look at it (it does, right?). The car is what it is. Use it, enjoy it and fall in love with it.....
Aluminati said:
I would disagree the cause of the lumpiness is your even bore readings.
Twin 40’s will take at least an hour to set up properly with the correct equipment, twiddling screws will throw them out even more.
I would get the carbs setup first and go from there, by someone who knows what they are doing.
This time of year, on twin 40s, genle running and modern unleaded, could be carb icing too..,,,Twin 40’s will take at least an hour to set up properly with the correct equipment, twiddling screws will throw them out even more.
I would get the carbs setup first and go from there, by someone who knows what they are doing.
Make sure it has a real good warm air duct. May lose a few top end HP, but carb iice will lose you 90%, make it run v rich, cause bore wash and knacker rings more.
colder damp days, just like weve had, are perfect for carb ice.
You can only really go to the dealer with the real demonstrable problem, the lumpy running.
I don't think you'll get very far with the compression test results. The dealer will say of course there's 70k miles wear on a motor that's done 70k. Unless there are claims of rebuilds and freshness in the description, it's exactly what you'd expect I'm afraid.
Bert
I don't think you'll get very far with the compression test results. The dealer will say of course there's 70k miles wear on a motor that's done 70k. Unless there are claims of rebuilds and freshness in the description, it's exactly what you'd expect I'm afraid.
Bert
rigga said:
Unrestored classic ..... 70k miles
Were you expecting the engine to be box fresh?
I think that “buyer beware” applies here.Were you expecting the engine to be box fresh?
The description is that you have bought a Classic in need of restoration. In the circumstances, you cannot expect the dealer to restore the engine.
Did he own the car, or was he selling it on commission?
How long has the petrol been sitting in the car?
More than a couple of months and I would be draining it out and filling with fresh, just to be sure.
Before contacting the dealer I would do a leak down test, this would show exactly where the problem, if any, is situated. As a bonus a leak down test will also verify the recent head rebuild was done well.
ETA as another poster mentioned, examine the carb spindles for leakage, this can cause poor running but can also be temporarily hidden with a blob of grease over the leaky bearing, maybe this was done to your car?
More than a couple of months and I would be draining it out and filling with fresh, just to be sure.
Before contacting the dealer I would do a leak down test, this would show exactly where the problem, if any, is situated. As a bonus a leak down test will also verify the recent head rebuild was done well.
ETA as another poster mentioned, examine the carb spindles for leakage, this can cause poor running but can also be temporarily hidden with a blob of grease over the leaky bearing, maybe this was done to your car?
Edited by kev b on Saturday 1st February 09:18
What is the reputation of the dealer? Does he stand by his sales? Does he like to keep a decent reputation? If he does a call to arrange for the car to be checked out would be in order. Don’t go looking for a fight if there’s not one to be had. I’d maybe not say you’ve been elsewhere and you’ve found this and that wrong. Give him a chance to investigate and sort out..
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