Landlords responsibilities.
Discussion
Just had a photo from daughter showing a Portion of GD'S kitchen ceiling falling down. GD was not hurt, but as luck had it, my year old Great grand daughter was not in the area. There's also problems of damp/mould in the flat, which the landlord has not addressed for a period of many months. Not nice with a year old child involved. Land lord is one of the new group of social landlords. Any of our legal gents care to hand out advice.
Who me said:
Just had a photo from daughter showing a Portion of GD'S kitchen ceiling falling down. GD was not hurt, but as luck had it, my year old Great grand daughter was not in the area. There's also problems of damp/mould in the flat, which the landlord has not addressed for a period of many months. Not nice with a year old child involved. Land lord is one of the new group of social landlords. Any of our legal gents care to hand out advice.
Ceiling fallen down - why? Lots more questions to be asked here. May be landlord's responsibility but may well not be either. Mould is almost always down to the tenant's lifestyle; keeping windows closed and not allowing damp air out after showering, leaving washing out to dry in the living room, boiling kettles/rice/pasta in the kitchen and keeping the windows closed etc etc etc will all cause damp. Is this the tenant's responsibility? That depends upon what the tenancy agreement says but a well-written one will state that tenants' responsibilities include not permitting damp to build up and treating any mould as it appears and it will also hold them liable for any damage should they fail to do these things. If the mould has been there for many months then I'd be asking why the tenant hasn't done something about it.
Forgive me if I appear terse but tenants who whinge about 'mould and damp and isn't it awful' ALWAYS get my back up and ALWAYS end up with a bill for the tenant.
Who me said:
Land lord is one of the new group of social landlords.
What does that have to do with anything at all? Who me said:
Not nice with a year old child involved.
Again, what is the relevance of this? I'm sure it's not an attempt to substitute emotional outrage for reason and rational thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_childre...
For reference, I run a letting agency in East London and see these problems year in, year out. This is the worst time of year for it.
Edited by 2Btoo on Friday 7th February 23:18
Edited by 2Btoo on Friday 7th February 23:20
2btoo- she's had a similar response fro landlord. So that is WHY I'd advise any tenant of a private ( and that means any one of the so called social landlords) to get the local council housing team involved to investigate problems. Damp and mould are regularly attributed to bad tenant living, but it could be down to bad maintenance or bad conditions, something landlords ignore and try to pass off as tenant problems.
I'd suggest that if you cannot further provide any lines of progress that you have a conversation with your best mate-bend forward and look rearward. And perhaps those with a better outlook on social housing and how to solve problems might give voice.
I'd suggest that if you cannot further provide any lines of progress that you have a conversation with your best mate-bend forward and look rearward. And perhaps those with a better outlook on social housing and how to solve problems might give voice.
It feels like the truth (generally speaking only) is somewhere in the middle of these posts. I rented for years and frankly the letting agencies in my areas are lazy and pretty useless with anything at all. This said I imagine there are a range of bad tenants. This doesn’t mean that the GD is a bad tenant or poster 2 is a bad letting agent. Just that you both have your own views based on experience. Personally speaking we need a regulator of letting agencies as it’s too easy to be a bad one.
I guess it comes down to if the tenant has taken the precautions they are required to in order to avoid condensation. If they have then the landlord or letting agent should be able to be held to account. Issue is that in the absence of a competent regulator any action is likely costly and time consuming to conduct. Is termination of agreement an option?
I guess it comes down to if the tenant has taken the precautions they are required to in order to avoid condensation. If they have then the landlord or letting agent should be able to be held to account. Issue is that in the absence of a competent regulator any action is likely costly and time consuming to conduct. Is termination of agreement an option?
The ages of the property is relevant here. If it’s newish, are the ventilation and extract systems working? Are trickle vents installed where they should be? If it has cavity wall insulation does it have vanity vents and weeps? These things, is failure of the fabric of the building or building systems are the landlords responsibility.
If it’s an older property it needs more ventilation, they are designed for air circulation. If tenant of land lord has fitted drafts excluders then air flow can be compromised.
As others have said, the tenant carries responsibility to ensure that they ventilate the property, the landlord that it can be ventilated.
In reality it needs a survey to ascertain the cause
If it’s an older property it needs more ventilation, they are designed for air circulation. If tenant of land lord has fitted drafts excluders then air flow can be compromised.
As others have said, the tenant carries responsibility to ensure that they ventilate the property, the landlord that it can be ventilated.
In reality it needs a survey to ascertain the cause
2Btoo said:
"Ceiling fallen down - why? Lots more questions to be asked here. May be landlord's responsibility but may well not be either.
Mould is almost always down to the tenant's lifestyle; keeping windows closed and not allowing damp air out after showering, leaving washing out to dry in the living room, boiling kettles/rice/pasta in the kitchen and keeping the windows closed etc etc etc will all cause damp. Is this the tenant's responsibility? That depends upon what the tenancy agreement says but a well-written one will state that tenants' responsibilities include not permitting damp to build up and treating any mould as it appears and it will also hold them liable for any damage should they fail to do these things. If the mould has been there for many months then I'd be asking why the tenant hasn't done something about it.
Forgive me if I appear terse but tenants who whinge about 'mould and damp and isn't it awful' ALWAYS get my back up and ALWAYS end up with a bill for the tenant. "
I work in the social housing and see lots of this. It is always easy to blame the tenant but it is not always right. How many time have you seen the gutters being cleaned? How many properly sealed flats have you seen?
All flats have funs that turn on with the light and gos off about 10min after lights off, they have mold, my home haven't, why?
"Ceiling fallen down - why? Lots more questions to be asked here. May be landlord's responsibility but may well not be either.
Mould is almost always down to the tenant's lifestyle; keeping windows closed and not allowing damp air out after showering, leaving washing out to dry in the living room, boiling kettles/rice/pasta in the kitchen and keeping the windows closed etc etc etc will all cause damp. Is this the tenant's responsibility? That depends upon what the tenancy agreement says but a well-written one will state that tenants' responsibilities include not permitting damp to build up and treating any mould as it appears and it will also hold them liable for any damage should they fail to do these things. If the mould has been there for many months then I'd be asking why the tenant hasn't done something about it.
Forgive me if I appear terse but tenants who whinge about 'mould and damp and isn't it awful' ALWAYS get my back up and ALWAYS end up with a bill for the tenant. "
I work in the social housing and see lots of this. It is always easy to blame the tenant but it is not always right. How many time have you seen the gutters being cleaned? How many properly sealed flats have you seen?
All flats have funs that turn on with the light and gos off about 10min after lights off, they have mold, my home haven't, why?
I have been a LL for 30+ years, with several flats let to both private and social housing tenants. Over those years I have had to deal with several complaints over damp and mould from tenants renting flats. Always been a case of modern living conditions of the tenant/s, moisture from early morning shower, cooking, heating, washing machine, drying clothes on radiator, then tenant/s off to work, with the flat locked up for the day, without windows open and therefore the lack of ventilation.
The moisture produced from the above, will find the *cold spots* within the flat, windows, mirrors, behind furniture placed near exterior walls etc. The idea solution is for the tenant/s to control the humidity levels within the flat, control heating, adequate ventilation, doors, windows, vents open etc. etc.
The above might be jumping to conclusion, since not knowing if the OP's flat is either on the ground floor, and could be rising damp, or if the damp is due to ingress damp etc.. As I advise my tenants, contacting one's local council's environmental housing health officer (hereafter EHH), who will carry out an independent inspection of the flat. Any defects discovered by EHH, then the LL will be served Notice to put right those defects, at the same securing the tenancy of the tenant/s.
To conclude, some properties, flats having *cold exterior walls are just prong to condensation, mould etc., with a one year old child's health, if the mould issue can not be eradicated, then consider finding alternative accommodation.
The moisture produced from the above, will find the *cold spots* within the flat, windows, mirrors, behind furniture placed near exterior walls etc. The idea solution is for the tenant/s to control the humidity levels within the flat, control heating, adequate ventilation, doors, windows, vents open etc. etc.
The above might be jumping to conclusion, since not knowing if the OP's flat is either on the ground floor, and could be rising damp, or if the damp is due to ingress damp etc.. As I advise my tenants, contacting one's local council's environmental housing health officer (hereafter EHH), who will carry out an independent inspection of the flat. Any defects discovered by EHH, then the LL will be served Notice to put right those defects, at the same securing the tenancy of the tenant/s.
To conclude, some properties, flats having *cold exterior walls are just prong to condensation, mould etc., with a one year old child's health, if the mould issue can not be eradicated, then consider finding alternative accommodation.
Having been a tenant in crappy insulated and poorly heated houses and the opposite:
Yes it can quite easily be tenants fault, but a lot can be exacerbated by the building.
One house had some old school central air heating system with a couple of vents out onto 2nd floor landing - so no heating into rooms. Single glazing. We kept window cracked open through winter but it would be covered in condensation and had to scrub wall beneath window for mould a few times.
Second house, really crappy old storage heaters. Vents through the wall. Again we would keep windows open but would get a load of condensation by the vents which got really cold and started to get mould patches. Even though they are supposed to alleviate the issue.
All other central rad heated houses we've had no issues. Missus would probably cause the bathroom to be a mould ground if I wasn't there to open the windows.
Both houses we've owned we've had extractor fans fitted to showrooms.
Current house, well insulated, cavity wall insulation, we can leave the window shut all night in winter (doesn't have trickle vents) and has minimal condensation on windows - never anything on the walls.
Yes it can quite easily be tenants fault, but a lot can be exacerbated by the building.
One house had some old school central air heating system with a couple of vents out onto 2nd floor landing - so no heating into rooms. Single glazing. We kept window cracked open through winter but it would be covered in condensation and had to scrub wall beneath window for mould a few times.
Second house, really crappy old storage heaters. Vents through the wall. Again we would keep windows open but would get a load of condensation by the vents which got really cold and started to get mould patches. Even though they are supposed to alleviate the issue.
All other central rad heated houses we've had no issues. Missus would probably cause the bathroom to be a mould ground if I wasn't there to open the windows.
Both houses we've owned we've had extractor fans fitted to showrooms.
Current house, well insulated, cavity wall insulation, we can leave the window shut all night in winter (doesn't have trickle vents) and has minimal condensation on windows - never anything on the walls.
Edited by meatballs on Saturday 8th February 20:46
Surely it must be a lath and plaster ceiling to collapse?
If that’s the case, then I am afraid it’s just one of those things. We had one in our kitchen which fell off a couple of years ago. Made a hell of a mess too!
Presumably the landlord will get it repaired. Not sure what else you are expecting TBH
If that’s the case, then I am afraid it’s just one of those things. We had one in our kitchen which fell off a couple of years ago. Made a hell of a mess too!
Presumably the landlord will get it repaired. Not sure what else you are expecting TBH
Lord Marylebone said:
I’ve worked in housing both directly and as a consultant for years, so I can try and help you with this.
Your post really isn’t clear about several things.
Who exactly is the landlord? Are they are private landlord? Are they a social housing provider?
How old (roughly) is the property?
Land lord is a housing Association , who moved into social housing and purchased a lot of social housing under stock transfer. To best of my knowledge, property is at least 25-30 years old. Your post really isn’t clear about several things.
Who exactly is the landlord? Are they are private landlord? Are they a social housing provider?
How old (roughly) is the property?
2Btoo said:
Mould is almost always down to the tenant's lifestyle;
Mainly but not always.My daughter recently left a rented flat which suffered from damp and mould from day one. Cause was poor maintenance of the property, it took nearly the whole year of tenancy to prove but finally we did.
OP; you seem to live your life in a perpetual state of victimhood. When someone points out that the ceiling coming down could genuinely be anything, and mould is nearly always the tenant's lifestyle, you get flouncy and angry. What this does is give a lot of merit to their point. You seem to be of the view that shouting and ranting and raving here will get a group of strangers to agree with you. What it actually does is highlight some issues on your part that you need to talk through with actual friends.
What are the circumstances of the ceiling coming down? Is it below a bathroom that has sealant and grouting in a poor state of repair that the tenant has failed to report, or have these issues been reported and ignored? Was there evidence of damp in this area that had been unreported, or had it been reported and ignored? What is the issue with mould? Is it behind units/furniture etc, how does the tenant use the property? Are they aware of the requirement to ventilate the property, even in winter?
You seem to begrudge the landlord being a landlord, but the reality of the matter is they are a landlord and the tenant is the tenant. That relationship is a two-way street, as the landlord isn't omnipotent and cannot determine what issues there are without being informed of them. A lot of shouting about tenant's rights has happened, so landlords leave tenants be until they need them; peaceful enjoyment and all that. If they are unaware of an issue, THAT IS THE TENANT'S FAULT. Renting a property isn't a case of just existing in someone else's box, you still have to maintain that property - it's just instead of putting your hand in your pocket and calling someone out, or getting the tools out, you tell your landlord or their agent.
Hating on social housing and landlords is ridiculous. Would you rather they were homeless?
What are the circumstances of the ceiling coming down? Is it below a bathroom that has sealant and grouting in a poor state of repair that the tenant has failed to report, or have these issues been reported and ignored? Was there evidence of damp in this area that had been unreported, or had it been reported and ignored? What is the issue with mould? Is it behind units/furniture etc, how does the tenant use the property? Are they aware of the requirement to ventilate the property, even in winter?
You seem to begrudge the landlord being a landlord, but the reality of the matter is they are a landlord and the tenant is the tenant. That relationship is a two-way street, as the landlord isn't omnipotent and cannot determine what issues there are without being informed of them. A lot of shouting about tenant's rights has happened, so landlords leave tenants be until they need them; peaceful enjoyment and all that. If they are unaware of an issue, THAT IS THE TENANT'S FAULT. Renting a property isn't a case of just existing in someone else's box, you still have to maintain that property - it's just instead of putting your hand in your pocket and calling someone out, or getting the tools out, you tell your landlord or their agent.
Hating on social housing and landlords is ridiculous. Would you rather they were homeless?
Just seen that it's a flat, my apologies on that front. Questions remain on whether the ceiling was exhibiting symptoms of damp; and if it was not showing any signs of damp, what can you expect the landlord to know that you already know yourselves. Sometimes things break quite suddenly; it's what insurance is for. If the tenant has not been in touch with them regularly regarding any of these issues then there is little they can do. Working with them amicably rather than calling them everything under the sun, hating on them for who or what they are and being an ass to them in general will yield far better results. If they are landlord for the property above, they may also be in a mess there as the tenant has failed their duties - or if it's a top floor, it may be that the agent has missed something that has been paid for.
They may be utterly incompetent landlords, but without understanding far more than "ceiling fell in, and it's always damp" we have nowhere near enough to go on.
They may be utterly incompetent landlords, but without understanding far more than "ceiling fell in, and it's always damp" we have nowhere near enough to go on.
I am/or should I say work for- a social housing landlord.
it couldn't be easier for a tnt to report repairs and equally for them to be dealt with in our sector. we're always very risk adverse to not resolving problems.
so, a defect to a ceiling, what has actually been reported and what actually happened next.
ceilings do not fall down.
was there a leak ?
was there someone dancing or doing exercises consistently in the room above, causing a weakening of the ceiling over a period of years ?
was the ceiling just so old that it was finally giving up the ghost
had it been renewed but the quality of work was so poor, its defective ?
had someone been changing light fittings and damaged the ceiling ?
damp/mould. Wow- in 95% cases its tenant lifestyle. they smoke, have animals, never ventilate, dry washing inside, never use fans, block air vents up, use tumble dryers venting into the house, ram rooms full of furniture so there is no air circulation, never ever ever open a window and so on and so on.
However, very clearly there are some poor prop types and designs out there and you do get building defects causing damp, which is not the tnts fault.
but again, whats the repair log for all of this ??? what advice has been given ?
but as I say, thank goodness she lives in the type of home she does, because it couldn't be easier to sort.
Yr comments re: imaginary child, maybe being injured. Again- life is full of what if's. Is she looking for a bit of compo, because of the what if factor ??
best bet, is she engages a no win, no fee solicitor. That'll help no end. Or write to her MP. again, that'll help all day long.
it couldn't be easier for a tnt to report repairs and equally for them to be dealt with in our sector. we're always very risk adverse to not resolving problems.
so, a defect to a ceiling, what has actually been reported and what actually happened next.
ceilings do not fall down.
was there a leak ?
was there someone dancing or doing exercises consistently in the room above, causing a weakening of the ceiling over a period of years ?
was the ceiling just so old that it was finally giving up the ghost
had it been renewed but the quality of work was so poor, its defective ?
had someone been changing light fittings and damaged the ceiling ?
damp/mould. Wow- in 95% cases its tenant lifestyle. they smoke, have animals, never ventilate, dry washing inside, never use fans, block air vents up, use tumble dryers venting into the house, ram rooms full of furniture so there is no air circulation, never ever ever open a window and so on and so on.
However, very clearly there are some poor prop types and designs out there and you do get building defects causing damp, which is not the tnts fault.
but again, whats the repair log for all of this ??? what advice has been given ?
but as I say, thank goodness she lives in the type of home she does, because it couldn't be easier to sort.
Yr comments re: imaginary child, maybe being injured. Again- life is full of what if's. Is she looking for a bit of compo, because of the what if factor ??
best bet, is she engages a no win, no fee solicitor. That'll help no end. Or write to her MP. again, that'll help all day long.
I'd imagine with a 1 year old child there is a lot of laundry to dry. If she hasn't already got one it might be worth considering a tumble dryer or dehumidifier, assuming the damp isn't due to a leaking pipe or blocked cavity.
My OH inherited a house from her uncle that had zero mould or damp issues. She started renting it out to someone who refused to open the windows to air the place out, used the heating as little as possible but (as she explained to me when I was fixing the shower) liked to take extended hot showers. Humidistat fan fitted but turned off as she didn't like the noise. Laundry dried inside on all bar the sunniest summer days.
Within a year it was a flipping mushroom farm.
My OH inherited a house from her uncle that had zero mould or damp issues. She started renting it out to someone who refused to open the windows to air the place out, used the heating as little as possible but (as she explained to me when I was fixing the shower) liked to take extended hot showers. Humidistat fan fitted but turned off as she didn't like the noise. Laundry dried inside on all bar the sunniest summer days.
Within a year it was a flipping mushroom farm.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff