Towing a trailer for business with a 4x4. Operators licence?
Discussion
Hi all
Sorry if this has been talked to death somewhere on PH, but I can't seem to find anything definitive using the search function.
The situation is this:
Towing a 3500kg trailer with a 4x4 (vw touareg v10...2600kg kerb, 3500kg towing weight)
For business (so hire and reward)
I know I'll need a tacho, but do I need an operators licence?
Is it exempt?
Theres conflicting information out there stating dual purpose vehicles are exempt but must be under 2040kg empty. But then 4x4's are passenger vehicles. There's even guidance that specifically lists 4x4's as exempt but doesn't ref. the weight.
From what I can tell, if its not exempt - most operators doing similar running a 4x4 seem to just ignore it. Whats the reality?
Sorry if this has been talked to death somewhere on PH, but I can't seem to find anything definitive using the search function.
The situation is this:
Towing a 3500kg trailer with a 4x4 (vw touareg v10...2600kg kerb, 3500kg towing weight)
For business (so hire and reward)
I know I'll need a tacho, but do I need an operators licence?
Is it exempt?
Theres conflicting information out there stating dual purpose vehicles are exempt but must be under 2040kg empty. But then 4x4's are passenger vehicles. There's even guidance that specifically lists 4x4's as exempt but doesn't ref. the weight.
From what I can tell, if its not exempt - most operators doing similar running a 4x4 seem to just ignore it. Whats the reality?
Chainsaw Rebuild said:
If its for hire or reward and its over 3.5t GTW then yes you do. You might be able to use a restricted or you might need a standard O licence.
In the exemptions it says 4x4s 'for example land rovers' - but then in the same paragraph it states dual purpose vehicles where the unladen weight must not exceed 2040kg.Something is amiss here, the only land rover to come under 2040kg unladen is the evoque.
crosseyedlion said:
In the exemptions it says 4x4s 'for example land rovers' - but then in the same paragraph it states dual purpose vehicles where the unladen weight must not exceed 2040kg.
Something is amiss here, the only land rover to come under 2040kg unladen is the evoque.
You won't get the land rover as a dual purpose vehicle because it's over weight, and also, depending on what type of Land Rover i.e. is it a pickup, van or normal and how many seats does it have, it might not count as designed or constructed for the carriage of goods. That could be interpreted as it needs to carry the good in its self, not tow a trailer.Something is amiss here, the only land rover to come under 2040kg unladen is the evoque.
"A dual purpose vehicle is a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods and designed to weigh no more than 2,040 kg when unladen"
Its a pain in the rear, I have emailed you btw.
Page 4 of this explains a bit better. You definitely need a licence if over 3.5T gross.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Chainsaw Rebuild said:
crosseyedlion said:
In the exemptions it says 4x4s 'for example land rovers' - but then in the same paragraph it states dual purpose vehicles where the unladen weight must not exceed 2040kg.
Something is amiss here, the only land rover to come under 2040kg unladen is the evoque.
You won't get the land rover as a dual purpose vehicle because it's over weight, and also, depending on what type of Land Rover i.e. is it a pickup, van or normal and how many seats does it have, it might not count as designed or constructed for the carriage of goods. That could be interpreted as it needs to carry the good in its self, not tow a trailer.Something is amiss here, the only land rover to come under 2040kg unladen is the evoque.
"A dual purpose vehicle is a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods and designed to weigh no more than 2,040 kg when unladen"
Its a pain in the rear, I have emailed you btw.
A small update for anyone interested.
I'm still very keen on this, but if I do it I'm planing to jump through any hoops required and do it legally. Specialise in motorsport/trans european logistics. That brings the advantage of being able to use a sprinter to tow which can be a nice camper overnight.
B+E test is booked for late october. I'll get an O licence when I need it but I have a plan in the interim.
I already have a LWB sprinter that I enjoy driving a little too much, I'm going to get set up as a courier (again targetting long jobs) for 2/3 days a week in the run up to christmas and play with cars the rest of the time to keep me sane (i'm designing something from scratch and also building a v12 w124 merc).
If I like couriering i'll go to all the effort of getting an o licence I will look at making it a scaleable business moving vehicles. I'm not keen on slogging 3-3.5t of trailer around in a 2t small engined truck in the meantime, it just doesn't appeal.
I'm still very keen on this, but if I do it I'm planing to jump through any hoops required and do it legally. Specialise in motorsport/trans european logistics. That brings the advantage of being able to use a sprinter to tow which can be a nice camper overnight.
B+E test is booked for late october. I'll get an O licence when I need it but I have a plan in the interim.
I already have a LWB sprinter that I enjoy driving a little too much, I'm going to get set up as a courier (again targetting long jobs) for 2/3 days a week in the run up to christmas and play with cars the rest of the time to keep me sane (i'm designing something from scratch and also building a v12 w124 merc).
If I like couriering i'll go to all the effort of getting an o licence I will look at making it a scaleable business moving vehicles. I'm not keen on slogging 3-3.5t of trailer around in a 2t small engined truck in the meantime, it just doesn't appeal.
Edited by crosseyedlion on Wednesday 12th August 18:55
I've had a dream recently of packing everything in, buying a nice Race Transporter or similar and trying to set up doing specialist car transport.
Ah well, I know I won't. Just a sudden romantic notion of long days driving across the continent to another race track or cool place and getting paid to hang out there
Ah well, I know I won't. Just a sudden romantic notion of long days driving across the continent to another race track or cool place and getting paid to hang out there
Had an interesting response when I chased it, the most interesting excerpt being this:
I'm amazed its not a yes/no
the government licencing unit said:
I must emphasise that the requirement or not to hold a licence is the view of this Department and is not intended to be a strict interpretation of the law. Only a Court of Law is able to give a legally definitive interpretation so if you remain in any doubt about your position I would advise seeking your own independent legal advice.
Am I right in reading this as they took one stance due to the ambiguity of the wording but im welcome to take another as it would be in the spirit of the law and correct grammatically?I'm amazed its not a yes/no
the government licencing unit said:
Dear Mr Wheatley,
thank you for your email and apologies for the delay in you receiving a response.
Generally speaking you require a goods vehicle operator's licence if you use a vehicle with a gross plated weight exceeding 3500 kgs for the carriage of goods for 'hire or reward' or for use in connection with a trade or business.
If you are using a combination of a vehicle and trailer you need a licence if the vehicle or combination of vehicle and trailer exceeds 3500kgs gross plated weight excluding any 'small trailer' if it is being used for restricted operations carrying your 'own' goods. A 'small trailer' is a trailer of 1020 kgs or less unladen weight. So for example if you are using a 3500 kgs gross plated weight vehicle and your trailer is 749kgs 'unladen weight' the trailer can be excluded when deciding if a licence is required or not and as the gross weight of the vehicle would not be exceeding 3500 kgs an operator licence would not be required.
However, if you are doing standard operations carrying goods for hire or reward i.e. goods that belong to another party the 'small trailer' exemption ceased to apply from the 4th December 2011 and in the example given above you would add the unladen weight of the trailer (749kgs) to the gross weight of the vehicle (3500 kgs) and given the combination exceeds 3500kgs you would require an operator licence.
Notwithstanding the above there is also an exemption from goods vehicle operator licensing for "dual purpose vehicles" which are exempt under Schedule 3 (2) of the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995. The full description of a "dual purpose vehicle" can be found in Regulation 3 of the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986. It includes 4x4s - like Land Rovers and their equivalents and states:
“a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either-
(i) is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all of the wheels of the vehicle; or
(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely –
the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver’s seat must -
(i) be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
(ii) be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
(c) the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in the head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.”
To qualify as a "dual purpose vehicle" any vehicle must meet the requirements above. If the vehicle does meet the requirements above then it will be exempt from goods vehicle operator licensing. I would however pay particular attention to the 2040 kgs unladen weight as some vehicles now weigh more than this although you still would not require an operator licence if you are carrying your own goods unless the trailer used exceeds 1020kgs unladen.
I must emphasise that the requirement or not to hold a licence is the view of this Department and is not intended to be a strict interpretation of the law. Only a Court of Law is able to give a legally definitive interpretation so if you remain in any doubt about your position I would advise seeking your own independent legal advice.
Regards
thank you for your email and apologies for the delay in you receiving a response.
Generally speaking you require a goods vehicle operator's licence if you use a vehicle with a gross plated weight exceeding 3500 kgs for the carriage of goods for 'hire or reward' or for use in connection with a trade or business.
If you are using a combination of a vehicle and trailer you need a licence if the vehicle or combination of vehicle and trailer exceeds 3500kgs gross plated weight excluding any 'small trailer' if it is being used for restricted operations carrying your 'own' goods. A 'small trailer' is a trailer of 1020 kgs or less unladen weight. So for example if you are using a 3500 kgs gross plated weight vehicle and your trailer is 749kgs 'unladen weight' the trailer can be excluded when deciding if a licence is required or not and as the gross weight of the vehicle would not be exceeding 3500 kgs an operator licence would not be required.
However, if you are doing standard operations carrying goods for hire or reward i.e. goods that belong to another party the 'small trailer' exemption ceased to apply from the 4th December 2011 and in the example given above you would add the unladen weight of the trailer (749kgs) to the gross weight of the vehicle (3500 kgs) and given the combination exceeds 3500kgs you would require an operator licence.
Notwithstanding the above there is also an exemption from goods vehicle operator licensing for "dual purpose vehicles" which are exempt under Schedule 3 (2) of the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995. The full description of a "dual purpose vehicle" can be found in Regulation 3 of the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986. It includes 4x4s - like Land Rovers and their equivalents and states:
“a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either-
(i) is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all of the wheels of the vehicle; or
(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely –
the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver’s seat must -
(i) be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
(ii) be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
(c) the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in the head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.”
To qualify as a "dual purpose vehicle" any vehicle must meet the requirements above. If the vehicle does meet the requirements above then it will be exempt from goods vehicle operator licensing. I would however pay particular attention to the 2040 kgs unladen weight as some vehicles now weigh more than this although you still would not require an operator licence if you are carrying your own goods unless the trailer used exceeds 1020kgs unladen.
I must emphasise that the requirement or not to hold a licence is the view of this Department and is not intended to be a strict interpretation of the law. Only a Court of Law is able to give a legally definitive interpretation so if you remain in any doubt about your position I would advise seeking your own independent legal advice.
Regards
- name deleted* | Senior Team Leader Licensing
the tribester said:
No, it's just their get out clause.
It just means the law isn't black and white. To be facetious, imagine if I enquired if I needed a driving licence and their response was the same 'well in our opinion you do, but we'd have to try it i a court of law'
It should be a statement of fact, not opinion
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