Advice required please!
Discussion
A few months ago my brother fell prey to North Wales scammers when on the bike. Started accelerating just before NSL sign (well outside village 30 limit concerned), pinged by camera van for 35 in a 30.
NIP turned up in time, all correct. Decided there wasn't really any way he could fight it without risking court and much bigger penalty (that's how the bastards get so many people rolling over
).
Anyway, sent NIP back as requested asking for evidence, & asking if there were any "rider improvement courses" he could do instead of the points, and so on and so forth. He sent it recorded delivery.
Anyway, today he got a shouty letter back from them saying he has one week to get the stuff back to them.
Now he has proof that he sent it thank God (recorded delivery) - but my question :
Does this open any loopholes for telling them where to stick it? (similar to the >14 days for initial NIP to reach him).
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Friday 24th June 18:56
NIP turned up in time, all correct. Decided there wasn't really any way he could fight it without risking court and much bigger penalty (that's how the bastards get so many people rolling over
). Anyway, sent NIP back as requested asking for evidence, & asking if there were any "rider improvement courses" he could do instead of the points, and so on and so forth. He sent it recorded delivery.
Anyway, today he got a shouty letter back from them saying he has one week to get the stuff back to them.
Now he has proof that he sent it thank God (recorded delivery) - but my question :
Does this open any loopholes for telling them where to stick it? (similar to the >14 days for initial NIP to reach him).
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Friday 24th June 18:56
10 to 1 the beggars will just send him another NoIP.
To be honest the problem with recorded delivery, NCoT, is that it's a waste of money.
The letter goes in the normal post, with all the usual problems, the theory being that at the delivery end the postie gets a signature from the recipient.
The reality is that they often get lost as this is no more reliable than normal mail, how many hundreds of thousands of items get lost every year?
That is outwith the muppetry at receivers end. I've had the Revenue flatly deny receipt of tax docs which were placed personally in their sticky little fingers.
Having also learnt the hard way about recorded delivery, if I have anything to send that I really DO want to get there I always use Special Delivery as this is treated separately from the regular post and a track & trace type transaction is available on-line and following any postal member erectus. Proof is obtainable in much more detail than with Rec Del. Hence tax returns, notice of intended shouting match with Severn Trent Water, all the usual suspects.
What your bro will have though is effectively a proof of posting which in the postal world means square root of beggar all.
Though I would argue that it is good supporting evidence to a sworn statement in case the scamps take it further along the S172 failure to supply route. Therefore could this in the long run be more valuable than a winning lottery ticket? Probably not.
What you could hope for is that your bro's response irritates the scamps so much that they don't issue a second NoIP but weigh straight in with a S172 prosecution in court, in which case the proof of posting may well be helpful. Give the court a laugh at CPS and scamps expense hopefully.
To be honest the problem with recorded delivery, NCoT, is that it's a waste of money.
The letter goes in the normal post, with all the usual problems, the theory being that at the delivery end the postie gets a signature from the recipient.
The reality is that they often get lost as this is no more reliable than normal mail, how many hundreds of thousands of items get lost every year?
That is outwith the muppetry at receivers end. I've had the Revenue flatly deny receipt of tax docs which were placed personally in their sticky little fingers.
Having also learnt the hard way about recorded delivery, if I have anything to send that I really DO want to get there I always use Special Delivery as this is treated separately from the regular post and a track & trace type transaction is available on-line and following any postal member erectus. Proof is obtainable in much more detail than with Rec Del. Hence tax returns, notice of intended shouting match with Severn Trent Water, all the usual suspects.
What your bro will have though is effectively a proof of posting which in the postal world means square root of beggar all.
Though I would argue that it is good supporting evidence to a sworn statement in case the scamps take it further along the S172 failure to supply route. Therefore could this in the long run be more valuable than a winning lottery ticket? Probably not.
What you could hope for is that your bro's response irritates the scamps so much that they don't issue a second NoIP but weigh straight in with a S172 prosecution in court, in which case the proof of posting may well be helpful. Give the court a laugh at CPS and scamps expense hopefully.
As DVD posted elsewhere:
"{i]In relation to service by post Sect 7 Interpretation Act 1978 where a document to be served by post, then unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of the post."
Streaky
"{i]In relation to service by post Sect 7 Interpretation Act 1978 where a document to be served by post, then unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of the post."
Streaky
Not sure if we are talking at cross purposes here Streaky, but surely it can be deemed that he DID comply with S172 in this case as not only can it be deemed to have arrived with the SCP, he also has proof that it arrived.
What if the CPS lost the knife with finger prints which was the one damning piece of evidence in a murder case? They can't exactly ask the suspect to put his paws on an identical knife.... Or has the law changed that much
Am I being naive here. Surely if it comes to court, he could employ a solicitor to speak on his behalf so he doesn't have to verbally answer the question and then get the solicitor to ask for the case to be dropped as there is no evidence as to who was the driver.
What if the CPS lost the knife with finger prints which was the one damning piece of evidence in a murder case? They can't exactly ask the suspect to put his paws on an identical knife.... Or has the law changed that much
Am I being naive here. Surely if it comes to court, he could employ a solicitor to speak on his behalf so he doesn't have to verbally answer the question and then get the solicitor to ask for the case to be dropped as there is no evidence as to who was the driver.
The point is that with Royal Mail recorded delivery signed for service he has a proof of postage that he sent something to Scammers Я Us. He can also go onto the Royal Mail site and using the reference number on his receipt get the "Track and Trace" service check if the something has been delivered. On payment of £2.20 even get a copy of the recipient signature. Or he can sort it all over the phone 0845 9272 100. Info all available on
www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/jump2?mediaId=500201&catId=400028
However at this stage this is not proof that he sent the NoIP back duly filled in, as whoever says it could have been an empty envelope.
Coupled with a sworn statement on oath this is a case worth arguing in front of the beaks in event of a S172 prosecution.
However as DVD pointed out this does not open any loopholes, as Scammers Я Us will simply send out another NoIP. Process starts again.
Personally, as said before, I don't trust recorded delivery service any more, too much gets lost, hence use Special Delivery which is not much more expensive.
It is unfair that we have to use special services, whilst they can just bang it in the normal mail and subsequently say it has legally arrived because they say that they sent it. IMHO.
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Saturday 25th June 11:38
www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/jump2?mediaId=500201&catId=400028
However at this stage this is not proof that he sent the NoIP back duly filled in, as whoever says it could have been an empty envelope.
Coupled with a sworn statement on oath this is a case worth arguing in front of the beaks in event of a S172 prosecution.
However as DVD pointed out this does not open any loopholes, as Scammers Я Us will simply send out another NoIP. Process starts again.
Personally, as said before, I don't trust recorded delivery service any more, too much gets lost, hence use Special Delivery which is not much more expensive.
It is unfair that we have to use special services, whilst they can just bang it in the normal mail and subsequently say it has legally arrived because they say that they sent it. IMHO.
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Saturday 25th June 11:38
Update : it was actually sent Special Delivery, and my brother has evidence of it being delivered.
My feeling is that he should write back saying that he complied with their request and has evidence that he did so, and leave it at that. He has supplied the evidence as requested and I can't see any reason why he should have to do it twice because of their incompetence
My feeling is that he should write back saying that he complied with their request and has evidence that he did so, and leave it at that. He has supplied the evidence as requested and I can't see any reason why he should have to do it twice because of their incompetence
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