Applying for Probate and Valuing the estate

[TheDrownedApe]

I know there was a similar thread recently but i can't find it, mea culpa

Wife's parents house was put in trust to their two children (wife and brother) in Jun 2016. Mother-in-law died in Feb 20. My wife and her brother are the two executors of the will and everything went smoothly. Father-in-law has found a savings account with substantial amount of money in it and "we" now need to apply for a deed of probate so the account can be released to FIL.

He was going to use a solicitors (£1k) but I checked and it's £215 on gov site and wife can do it. Before she can though she needs to value the estate and there was her bank and this saving account and the house (but the house is in trust to her and brother and the FIL is still alive).

I'm aware there is some rule about 7 years but if one party is still alive (FIL) does the house have a bearing when i come to value the estate?

Finally it says "the process of valuing the estate can take 6 to 9 months". Now it seems the FIL solicitors haven't had to do this (or have inside 2 weeks and we don't know) and they were just asking my wife/brother for their signatures (as executors) for the deed of Probate to say that the savings can pass to FIL (not sure of the right terminology).

So is it simplier for my wife to do it (6-9 months WTF) or just throw £1k at the solicitors?

Should Her estates value have been sorted when she died (including the house intrust) than just passing everything to her husband?

I thought it was going to be simple but within 5 mins I've hit 2 brick walls

edit: 100% the value is under tax threshold, even with the house as an asset - does this change things?

Edited by TheDrownedApe on Monday 7th September 15:47

Edited by TheDrownedApe on Monday 7th September 15:57

[over_the_hill]

I am currently going through similar due to a family bereavement and being the named executor of the will.

If there is any inheritance tax to pay, this will need to be paid before they will process your application for probate.
Applying for probate yourself on-line is nothing to be scared of if you can use a computer.

For valuing the house I was told (and it appears to be the case in my experience) that the IHT office are moderately sympathetic
to people in difficult times, and something like a print out from Zoopla will suffice for a house valuation.
Apparently they only look closely at cases that are suspiciously low or very large where it might be easy to hide a few million.
Anything that looks about right tends to pass through.

The Probate Registry web-site claims that the process takes about 4-weeks but could be longer due to Covid.
(Apparently people working at home are just as, if not more productive don't you know)
I have been waiting since early June when they confirmed IHT had been signed of and that they had all of the paperwork they needed.

So be prepared for a lengthy process.

[Usget]

Also been through the same recently. I would say that, in hindsight, using a solicitor does nothing except add a layer of complexity. We should have gone down the self-service route. Our solicitor did nothing except ask for the inputs to prepare and submit the form, and has had to be chased constantly. My FIL passed away in December, and probate has yet to be granted, partly due to the solicitor sitting on simple tasks for months on end.

Work your way through IHT407 and then use it to populate IHT400. It's time-consuming but not complicated.

[over_the_hill]

Usget said:

Also been through the same recently. I would say that, in hindsight, using a solicitor does nothing except add a layer of complexity. We should have gone down the self-service route. Our solicitor did nothing except ask for the inputs to prepare and submit the form, and has had to be chased constantly. My FIL passed away in December, and probate has yet to be granted, partly due to the solicitor sitting on simple tasks for months on end.

Work your way through IHT407 and then use it to populate IHT400. It's time-consuming but not complicated.

This.

All a solicitor will do is fill in forms for people who are scared of filling in forms.

[toon10]

I've just been awarded grant of probate this month although I have a property which hasn't completed yet so the money is not released. I applied via a solicitor back in May to give you an idea of timings. Mine was very simple too, one bank account, one house and a couple of insurance policies and the total value is less than the threshold in total. I'd be expecting up to 6 months after applying before it's done if my experience is anything to go by.

I could have done this myself and saved money but the questions they were asking were bringing up more questions and I just felt that I'd spend a lot longer getting it wrong and having to redo things so just got a solicitor (same company as the house conveyancer) to handle it all. You've enough on your plate dealing with things than having the stress of trying to sort probate yourself.

I got a proper house valuation done. The solicitor tried to add an extra £20k on top as she just used Zoopla but my estimation is more accurate as the property needs a lot more done than the ones that were going for more in the area. It's just a number on a form and they don't require much more than an estimate.

Hope my experiences help.

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

over_the_hill said:

All a solicitor will do is fill in forms for people who are scared of filling in forms.

That may often be true, but not always.

When I went through this process for my father’s estate, the solicitor applied a legitimate discount on the value of Dad’s house that I would never have known about if I’d done everything myself. In so doing he saved more than double the amount in IHT than his fee was.

Oh, and we also employed an accountant, who suggested another nifty way of reducing our tax bill. IIRC, his idea was to get the will re-written to share the inheritance with my wife, thus employing her CGT allowance (a second property was involved) in addition to mine and my sister’s. This wouldn’t have been possible without the solicitor. I didn’t even know you could alter a will after someone has died.

Overall, we saved more money than the solicitor and accountant charged.

My recommendation, unless an estate is really simple, is to do the donkey-work of obtaining all the valuations yourself (because this is the easy bit that doesn’t require knowledge or skill - you just write loads of letters saying “please provide me with a probate valuation” and enclose death certificates), but get a solicitor to do the paperwork. That’s how I did it. The solicitor and/or accountant may well spot ways of optimising your application in ways that you wouldn’t know.

So you see, professionals are quite good at playing the game to optimise things in your favour.

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Monday 7th September 19:45

[TheDrownedApe]

thanks peeps so far, but

How can the solicitors get this porbate without doing a valuation?

If i do the vaulation and the house is in their joint names but in trust; do I need to add it to value her estate or does it auto pass to her husband, even though its in trust?

[anonymous-user]

TheDrownedApe said:

thanks peeps so far, but

How can the solicitors get this porbate without doing a valuation?

If i do the vaulation and the house is in their joint names but in trust; do I need to add it to value her estate or does it auto pass to her husband, even though its in trust?

The estate has to be valued to confirm if it exceeds the IHT threshold, typically any item worth over £500 is included but if there are lots of small items that add up in value then these may also need to be included in the valuation.

As there is a trust involved it may well be worth trying one of the free solicitor consultation offers to understand the impact of the trust as these can get complicated.

Due to Covid, the leadtime for getting a grant of probate is at least 12 weeks.

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

I said:

My recommendation, unless an estate is really simple

In my opinion, if there’s a trust involved and you don’t understand the implications, that takes the estate out of “really simple” territory. Personally I’d be hiring a solicitor, not just getting a free consultation. You could potentially avoid an expensive fk-up that would have cost more than the solicitor’s fee. This is not something you should do by getting amateur opinions from a car enthusiasts’ forum.

[megaphone]

A straight forward estate is pretty easy to execute, I have done two. What makes your's complicated is the trust, what type of trust is it? Why did they put the house in a trust? How long ago was the house put in trust? All this may affect the probate.

You say the total value of the estate, even with the house value, is under the IHT threshold? That should make things easier. Although this also asks the question, why did the house go into a trust? You need to get details, and understand, the detail of the trust fund.

[TheDrownedApe]

Well after reading the replies and musing over it overnight I've decided to let my FIL throw it back at his solicitors.

I cba valuing the estate, nor waiting 6-9 months to be told nothing to worry about and then apply for probate and get the money released to the FIL. My time is worth more than £785 and it's his money, not mine.

thanks for the advice...if only her son had cared more

[Pot Bellied Fool]

Jasey_ said:

I would say the trust makes this one for some sort of expert.

Having said that some solicitors seem to know less than my googled knowledge when doing my mums estate earlier in the year.

Yup, makes sense to use a Solicitor that understands the individual niche, whether that be probate, motoring law, employment law and so on - yet so many people think the typical High Street practice can do it all to a superlative standard. Not always the case.

I see the OP is sorted now but FWIW, I was setting some email up for this lady this morning, a qualified Solicitor and specialises in Wills, Trusts & Probate. I've known her on the local business scene for years and she knows her stuff if anybody needs advice on probate.

[Far Cough]

Not sure which area of the UK you are in but the London probate office is working 8 weeks in areas and strictly on date received basis. This combined with the delays in built with the system means a bit of a wait. I hand delivered my application which was a very simple estate needing IHT being paid on 2nd Jan and probate was finally granted end of March. C19 has made things worse I`m told.

[megaphone]

TheDrownedApe said:

...if only her son had cared more

I'm sure he'll care when it finally comes to hand out time.

[megaphone]

Just to add, my mates mum died in may, he and his brother got probate through in a few weeks, that was in London. We where surprised how quickly it came through.

[tigger1]

Always amuses me the amount folk will spend on some types of insurance, but won't pay for professional (and insured) services elsewhere.

OP - Look for a STEP member in your area (Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners):

https://content.step.org/step-directory

[TheDrownedApe]

tigger1 said:

Always amuses me the amount folk will spend on some types of insurance, but won't pay for professional (and insured) services elsewhere.

OP - Look for a STEP member in your area (Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners):

https://content.step.org/step-directory

thanks but it's sorted, back to his solicitors that he has used for years and whom started the process before i rudely butted my nose in.

[anonymous-user]

TheDrownedApe said:

Well after reading the replies and musing over it overnight I've decided to let my FIL throw it back at his solicitors.

I cba valuing the estate, nor waiting 6-9 months to be told nothing to worry about and then apply for probate and get the money released to the FIL. My time is worth more than £785 and it's his money, not mine.

thanks for the advice...if only her son had cared more

£785 sounds like a bargain and about 2.5hrs of the time the one dealing with my mother's estate charges.

[thepeoplespal]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

......Oh, and we also employed an accountant, who suggested another nifty way of reducing our tax bill. IIRC, his idea was to get the will re-written to share the inheritance with my wife, thus employing her CGT allowance (a second property was involved) in addition to mine and my sister’s. This wouldn’t have been possible without the solicitor. I didn’t even know you could alter a will after someone has died. ....

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Monday 7th September 19:45

It is called a Deed of Variation and needs the agreement of the beneficiaries as they are potentially affected by the changes.

Can be used to fix poorly written wills or to pass money to grandchildren rather than the parent in some cases, or many other different things, that fit to people's circumstances. Takes the beneficiaries to co-operate though, so not for every family, better to get the will written correctly in the first place.

[anonymous-user]

over_the_hill said:

...

All a solicitor will do is fill in forms for people who are scared of filling in forms.

Yeah, the law of Trusts - piece of piss, that is. Bluffer's game.


PS: I am hanging out in Jersey this week, doing a bit of work for a change. Not exciting, but very civilised. A place that has built a rather good economy on just how simple, easy peasy, and DIY the law of trusts is. See also: the bit of Geneva that doesn't do watches. Money for Jam!

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 9th September 10:44