IP image reuse issue
Discussion
Morning all, advice sought...as always
Years ago a company created a learning package on CD-rom for HM forces. It would seem this company retained rights to the package. There are plenty of high quality 2/3d renderings that we (HM Forces) now need to use to update the training albeit in a different format (moodle). I've been met with the typical response of "we can't use them" but i don't think this is correct.
The old content is for use by HM forces. The new content will be for use solely by the Royal Engineers (and owned by them) via a restricted online learning environment.
Now I'm sure I've read somewhere, been told, or probably dreamt it that IP would not be relevant in this situation or there is a work around in the rules that would allow this.
So I'm guessing this is my quickest/easiest route to an answer...over to you fine folk.
Years ago a company created a learning package on CD-rom for HM forces. It would seem this company retained rights to the package. There are plenty of high quality 2/3d renderings that we (HM Forces) now need to use to update the training albeit in a different format (moodle). I've been met with the typical response of "we can't use them" but i don't think this is correct.
The old content is for use by HM forces. The new content will be for use solely by the Royal Engineers (and owned by them) via a restricted online learning environment.
Now I'm sure I've read somewhere, been told, or probably dreamt it that IP would not be relevant in this situation or there is a work around in the rules that would allow this.
So I'm guessing this is my quickest/easiest route to an answer...over to you fine folk.
This strikes me as something an officer has asked too many questions and seen an episode of Law and Order. Remember a significant number of junior officers can't actually make any decisions or are terrified of a bad report. I would just quietly get on with it in the background - better to beg for forgiveness etc.....
I am obviously not a lawyer, but did pull all sorts of similar things when I wan in. I was lucky that my bosses were primarily concerned with the endstate.
Does the old company still exist?
I am obviously not a lawyer, but did pull all sorts of similar things when I wan in. I was lucky that my bosses were primarily concerned with the endstate.
Does the old company still exist?
Yes. The company was created to produce this content and only 1 man works there. He resissues the CD-rom every 6 months as it has licence/password/expiry embedded into it.
The content will be created by a 3rd party company (final ownership rests with the Mil) but they are not too hot on IP when i've asked them (or can't be arsed to actually do the digging and provide an answer) and just say "we can't use that; it will need to be recreated". Clearly they want extra money
The content will be created by a 3rd party company (final ownership rests with the Mil) but they are not too hot on IP when i've asked them (or can't be arsed to actually do the digging and provide an answer) and just say "we can't use that; it will need to be recreated". Clearly they want extra money
Edited by TheDrownedApe on Tuesday 13th October 08:26
selym said:
I might be wrong in this case but a DEFFORM 177 (Design Rights/IPR etc) should have been signed by the subcon and a commercial officer on behalf of the Crown- see if you can chase the paper trail to find it.
Thanks but never going to happen. Imagine trying to find a contract when you don't work in that location or company. The amount of contracts I've been privy to where no thought was given to the deal is scary. 10s of munitions contracts where no training, drill or practise munitions were part of the deal. IMO the contract for this training was tendered in about 2002Taita said:
...
I would just quietly get on with it in the background - better to beg for forgiveness etc.....
I am obviously not a lawyer, but did pull all sorts of similar things when I wan in. ...
It's really great to see that ethics are so highly prized in the military. Officers and gentlemen, hurrah!I would just quietly get on with it in the background - better to beg for forgiveness etc.....
I am obviously not a lawyer, but did pull all sorts of similar things when I wan in. ...
Breadvan72 said:
As you are, it appears, a serving member of the Army, ask the Government Legal Department for advice. That is what it is there for.
Why do you want to rip off the author of the work? Peace with Honour, eh?
Not anymore and they don't really care about small issues such as this. I spend money that belongs to HM forces for use in training. I want to save HM forces money and a lot of time by not reproducing content that is fit for purpose, just contained on a disc owned by another Mil sub-contractor who can't use it anywhere else. I've tried contacting the originator without success.Why do you want to rip off the author of the work? Peace with Honour, eh?
Breadvan72 said:
Well I am sorry, but there is no free pass for HM Forces. They are subject to the same boring old rule of law (that they get paid to defend) as civilians are. The P in IP is the clue, and the civil side of the law is all about protecting property rights
Yeah cool. I didn't suspect HM had a free pass, i thought i had read something about usage in a closed environment but i guess not. thanksWithout seeing the original contract, it is impossible to know what the rights to use the images might be.
They might have been provided only for use in that application / CD ROM instance, or they might allow for wider use (within the same org etc).
I would have thought if you can't find the wording, it's going to be hard to find someone who will say it is technically OK to use them
They might have been provided only for use in that application / CD ROM instance, or they might allow for wider use (within the same org etc).
I would have thought if you can't find the wording, it's going to be hard to find someone who will say it is technically OK to use them
Just do what you like, and if they find out offer to fight them for the rights!!
but seriously you have 3 options
negotiate to use them (pay for them) or
use them and see what happens or
redraw them (so you own them)
as said they're not yours so using them is naughty,
maybe add a little carton of Boris having fisticuffs with Putin to each Illustration and claim its Satire or Parody or whatever gets you round Copy-write
but seriously you have 3 options
negotiate to use them (pay for them) or
use them and see what happens or
redraw them (so you own them)
as said they're not yours so using them is naughty,
maybe add a little carton of Boris having fisticuffs with Putin to each Illustration and claim its Satire or Parody or whatever gets you round Copy-write
In my area of business (pharma) we would Never get away with this. Anything we create for a client belongs to them. If we have images of their products, they are theirs. They don’t own anything we have created in our own time and license to them (like a DAM app we have) but otherwise...they commissioned it and paid for it so it’s theirs.
Breadvan72 said:
It's really great to see that ethics are so highly prized in the military. Officers and gentlemen, hurrah!
I've never met a more unethical, litigious or downright nasty organisation such as the law profession. The tales that two of my closest friends, both lawyers (one now an ex lawyer), tell of the way that legal types treat each other is truly astonishing. The pair of them have won tens of thousands from previous legal employers due to their complete ineptitude, underhand treatment and subterfuge. Yes, the Officer Corps has its fair share of bell ends and blowhards but is a paragon of virtue in comparison!Nightmare said:
In my area of business (pharma) we would Never get away with this. Anything we create for a client belongs to them. If we have images of their products, they are theirs. They don’t own anything we have created in our own time and license to them (like a DAM app we have) but otherwise...they commissioned it and paid for it so it’s theirs.
Indeed, I'm in the same world but on the client side and I would expect that if we'd paid an agency to create some material for us then we would own the whole thing, including any images and their relevant rights. It sounds as though whoever signed/reviewed the original contract rather let this one slip, or perhaps this is simply the way things are done in the forces and other organisations. Nightmare said:
In my area of business (pharma) we would Never get away with this. Anything we create for a client belongs to them. If we have images of their products, they are theirs. They don’t own anything we have created in our own time and license to them (like a DAM app we have) but otherwise...they commissioned it and paid for it so it’s theirs.
You should get a better legal team or better negotiators then. 
SiH said:
Indeed, I'm in the same world but on the client side and I would expect that if we'd paid an agency to create some material for us then we would own the whole thing, including any images and their relevant rights. It sounds as though whoever signed/reviewed the original contract rather let this one slip, or perhaps this is simply the way things are done in the forces and other organisations.
HMG (and governments in general) departments have standard contracting conditions and rules that have been developed over the years. Sometimes these seem a bit mad if you only deal with private enterprise, but usually there are reasons for them (genuine reasons... not back-scratchy reasons). Think of it like this - if you buy a newly built house, it will have been built to the latest building regulations. The wiring will conform to BS7671. The boiler will be CE marked or similar. These are all standards. You could build a house and everything in it without conforming to these standards, but these standards have been developed over the years and have been found to offer a degree of certainty that your wiring won't somehow make your boiler won't catch fire, but if it does then the house won't go up like a tinder box before you have a chance to get out. Standard contracting conditions work in much the same way. It may inconvenience the OP in this instance (much like when you find you can't run a cable out to your shed without onerous stuff like building notices and electrical inspections) but in another instance it might protect the govt (much like when some muppet runs a cable to his shed, it catches fire and then burns your shed down).
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