Appropriate sentences for fatal road incident?
Discussion
Recent report from Northampton Crown Court:
https://www.northants.police.uk/news/northants/new...
Seems to me they got off lightly. They even had PCOJ (Perverting the Course of Justice) in the mix!
One can get 18 months in jail for PCOJ just for lying to Police in a speeding case?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/09/c...
Cliftonite said:
One can get 18 months in jail for PCOJ just for lying to Police in a speeding case?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/09/c...
This seems to come up so many times.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/09/c...
PCOJ is an attack on the justice system itself, thus is punished severely. What spawned it is largely academic, although that never seems to stop people conflating the punishment with the original offence.
Trading a minor motoring offence for one that is much more serious seems rather stupid to me, but there you go.
iDrive said:
Nice try, but they were prosecuted for causing death by careless driving not dangerousmartinbiz said:
Nice try, but they were prosecuted for causing death by careless driving not dangerous
The notes include;Level 3
Driving that created a significant risk of danger
(Where the driving is markedly less culpable than for this level, reference should be made to the starting point and range for the most serious level of causing death by careless driving)
And this may also assist;
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/publications/...
agtlaw said:
That note (wrong offence) doesn’t assist much.
Offences were:
1. PCJ
2. Causing death by careless driving
3. Causing death by driving whilst unlicensed / uninsured
Offences 2 and 3 have a SC guideline. PCJ doesn’t.
Assists in understanding the appropriate sentences for a fatal road incident though - how current sentences are arrived at.Offences were:
1. PCJ
2. Causing death by careless driving
3. Causing death by driving whilst unlicensed / uninsured
Offences 2 and 3 have a SC guideline. PCJ doesn’t.
agtlaw said:
That note (wrong offence) doesn’t assist much.
Offences were:
1. PCJ
2. Causing death by careless driving
3. Causing death by driving whilst unlicensed / uninsured
Offences 2 and 3 have a SC guideline. PCJ doesn’t.
Thanks AGT. It does seem a very light sentence, how often are these things appealed by the Crown?Offences were:
1. PCJ
2. Causing death by careless driving
3. Causing death by driving whilst unlicensed / uninsured
Offences 2 and 3 have a SC guideline. PCJ doesn’t.
Piginapoke said:
Thanks AGT. It does seem a very light sentence, how often are these things appealed by the Crown?
If you identify the correct sentencing guidelines (rather than follow the link to the wrong offence unhelpfully posted by iDrive) then you may see why the sentence was passed. Judges must follow sentencing guidelines.https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magi...
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magi...
There is no right of appeal for the Crown. Anyone can ask the AG to refer a sentence to the Court of Appeal. However, CDCD is not in the scheme. PCJ is.
https://1v6.c22.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads...
CzechItOut said:
What's the difference between careless driving and dangerous driving?
I'd say mounting the pavement sounds more dangerous than careless to me.
The difference between careless and dangerous drivingI'd say mounting the pavement sounds more dangerous than careless to me.
The actus reus of dangerous driving is driving in a manner which falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver in circumstances in which it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous. “Dangerous” refers to a danger either of personal injury to any person or of serious damage to property.
The actus reus of careless driving is driving in a manner that falls below what would be expected of a careful and competent driver. This may merely cause annoyance or show lack of consideration, with little risk of injury or serious damage.
The difference between the two types of offence is the extent to which the offender’s driving falls below the required driving standard; namely “far below” for dangerous driving but merely “below” for careless driving.
agtlaw said:
The difference between careless and dangerous driving
The actus reus of dangerous driving is driving in a manner which falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver in circumstances in which it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous. “Dangerous” refers to a danger either of personal injury to any person or of serious damage to property.
The actus reus of careless driving is driving in a manner that falls below what would be expected of a careful and competent driver. This may merely cause annoyance or show lack of consideration, with little risk of injury or serious damage.
The difference between the two types of offence is the extent to which the offender’s driving falls below the required driving standard; namely “far below” for dangerous driving but merely “below” for careless driving.
Given those definitions, how does mounting the pavement and hitting a pedestrian with enough force to cause fatal injuries not constitute dangerous driving?The actus reus of dangerous driving is driving in a manner which falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver in circumstances in which it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous. “Dangerous” refers to a danger either of personal injury to any person or of serious damage to property.
The actus reus of careless driving is driving in a manner that falls below what would be expected of a careful and competent driver. This may merely cause annoyance or show lack of consideration, with little risk of injury or serious damage.
The difference between the two types of offence is the extent to which the offender’s driving falls below the required driving standard; namely “far below” for dangerous driving but merely “below” for careless driving.
I'd hardly call this circumstance an "annoyance" or "lack of consideration".
It would be foolish to say, "someone died therefore the driving must have been dangerous." A very minor mistake can lead to a tragic outcome. I don't know enough about the circumstances to comment.
CPS website lists a few examples of what is, arguably, careless driving:
- overtaking on the inside
- driving too close to another vehicle
- driving through a red light by mistake
- turning into the path of another vehicle
- the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
- flashing lights to force other drivers to give way
- misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers
The MCSG lists the following culpability factors for careless driving:
- Excessive speed or aggressive driving
- Carrying out other tasks while driving
- Vehicle used for the carriage of heavy goods or for the carriage of passengers for reward
- Tiredness or driving whilst unwell
- Driving contrary to medical advice (including written advice from the drug manufacturer not to drive when taking any medicine)
Similarly, CPS lists some examples of what is, arguably, dangerous driving:
- racing, going too fast, or driving aggressively
- ignoring traffic lights, road signs or warnings from passengers
- overtaking dangerously
- driving under the influence of drink or drugs, including prescription drugs
- driving when unfit, including having an injury, being unable to see clearly, not taking prescribed drugs, or being sleepy
- knowing the vehicle has a dangerous fault or an unsafe load
- the driver being avoidably and dangerously distracted, for example by using a hand-held phone
- lighting a cigarette, changing a CD or tape, tuning the radio
The MCSG lists the following culpability factors for dangerous driving:
- Disregarding warnings of others
- Evidence of alcohol or drugs
- Carrying out other tasks while driving
- Carrying passengers or heavy load
- Tiredness
- Aggressive driving, such as driving much too close to vehicle in front, racing, inappropriate attempts to overtake, or cutting in after overtaking
- Driving when knowingly suffering from a medical condition which significantly impairs the offender’s driving skills
- Driving a poorly maintained or dangerously loaded vehicle, especially where motivated by commercial concerns
CPS website lists a few examples of what is, arguably, careless driving:
- overtaking on the inside
- driving too close to another vehicle
- driving through a red light by mistake
- turning into the path of another vehicle
- the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
- flashing lights to force other drivers to give way
- misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers
The MCSG lists the following culpability factors for careless driving:
- Excessive speed or aggressive driving
- Carrying out other tasks while driving
- Vehicle used for the carriage of heavy goods or for the carriage of passengers for reward
- Tiredness or driving whilst unwell
- Driving contrary to medical advice (including written advice from the drug manufacturer not to drive when taking any medicine)
Similarly, CPS lists some examples of what is, arguably, dangerous driving:
- racing, going too fast, or driving aggressively
- ignoring traffic lights, road signs or warnings from passengers
- overtaking dangerously
- driving under the influence of drink or drugs, including prescription drugs
- driving when unfit, including having an injury, being unable to see clearly, not taking prescribed drugs, or being sleepy
- knowing the vehicle has a dangerous fault or an unsafe load
- the driver being avoidably and dangerously distracted, for example by using a hand-held phone
- lighting a cigarette, changing a CD or tape, tuning the radio
The MCSG lists the following culpability factors for dangerous driving:
- Disregarding warnings of others
- Evidence of alcohol or drugs
- Carrying out other tasks while driving
- Carrying passengers or heavy load
- Tiredness
- Aggressive driving, such as driving much too close to vehicle in front, racing, inappropriate attempts to overtake, or cutting in after overtaking
- Driving when knowingly suffering from a medical condition which significantly impairs the offender’s driving skills
- Driving a poorly maintained or dangerously loaded vehicle, especially where motivated by commercial concerns
Edited by agtlaw on Saturday 19th December 11:54
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