Right to refuse to drive company minibus in snow/ice?
Discussion
My wife works at a council run residential care home for children with behavioural problems. She is emplyed as a care officer and a driving license is not a requirement for the position, and she receives no extra benefits or payment or recognition for being able to drive.
Being that she is often on shift or standby with other workers who dont drive she is frequently called on to drive the units minibus, a bashed up 2014 vivaro on mismatched ditchfinder tyres more than 2 thirds worn that also keeps jumping out of gear and making a whining noise. She isnt too confident driving it but she does in good weather to keep the peace. The council has taxi accounts but she still finds herself called in on standby to ferry someone about for something trivial.
The problem right now is the roads round here are covered in snow and ice and the gritting has been substandard this year. Despite her having a 4 wheel drive on brand new winter tyres she still doesn't feel happy to drive so I am dropping her off at work and picking her up.
She knows her limits, and I am happier that she admits it and doesn't risk a prang, but her work have been trying to get her to go in today on her standby day just to drive the minibus somewhere because there are only non drivers on shift, the roads are still treacherous, still havent been gritted at the places she is being asked to go. She is even being asked to ferry some of the non driving staff home from work because it isnt fair to expect them to rely on public transport in this weather because the lazy freeloading
s couldn't be bothered to learn a basic adult life skill.
Her managers are applying pressure for her to disregard her own risk assesment of her ability to cope with the conditions in an unsuitable vehicle she isnt comfortable operating.
Any laws protecting her against this we can use as an objection?
Remember she never took a driving job and others in the exact same role at the same pay dont drive, and she has always said she hates driving in ice and hates driving a minibus, it has never been a secret.
There are usually 3 other staff who enjoy getting out for a wee jolly in the minibus as they are more confident drivers and it gets them out and about from the unit but 2 are on suspension over gross misconduct and one is on long term sick after an assault at work so pressure is on just now.
Being that she is often on shift or standby with other workers who dont drive she is frequently called on to drive the units minibus, a bashed up 2014 vivaro on mismatched ditchfinder tyres more than 2 thirds worn that also keeps jumping out of gear and making a whining noise. She isnt too confident driving it but she does in good weather to keep the peace. The council has taxi accounts but she still finds herself called in on standby to ferry someone about for something trivial.
The problem right now is the roads round here are covered in snow and ice and the gritting has been substandard this year. Despite her having a 4 wheel drive on brand new winter tyres she still doesn't feel happy to drive so I am dropping her off at work and picking her up.
She knows her limits, and I am happier that she admits it and doesn't risk a prang, but her work have been trying to get her to go in today on her standby day just to drive the minibus somewhere because there are only non drivers on shift, the roads are still treacherous, still havent been gritted at the places she is being asked to go. She is even being asked to ferry some of the non driving staff home from work because it isnt fair to expect them to rely on public transport in this weather because the lazy freeloading
s couldn't be bothered to learn a basic adult life skill. Her managers are applying pressure for her to disregard her own risk assesment of her ability to cope with the conditions in an unsuitable vehicle she isnt comfortable operating.
Any laws protecting her against this we can use as an objection?
Remember she never took a driving job and others in the exact same role at the same pay dont drive, and she has always said she hates driving in ice and hates driving a minibus, it has never been a secret.
There are usually 3 other staff who enjoy getting out for a wee jolly in the minibus as they are more confident drivers and it gets them out and about from the unit but 2 are on suspension over gross misconduct and one is on long term sick after an assault at work so pressure is on just now.
Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Sunday 3rd January 14:34
If she's driving a council minibus she should of completed a short training course during which she will have been told to do basic checks on the council vehicle she will drive. You cannot be forced to drive any vehicle if you feel it is not safe. Mismatched tyres and jumping out of gears would be enough to put most off at this time of year.
Dinoboy said:
If she's driving a council minibus she should of completed a short training course during which she will have been told to do basic checks on the council vehicle she will drive. You cannot be forced to drive any vehicle if you feel it is not safe. Mismatched tyres and jumping out of gears would be enough to put most off at this time of year.
none of them have ever had any driver training from the council.Not sure if it comes under needing it or not, its a 9 seater vivaro 2900 lwb if that helps?
For want of a better phrase - put her foot down. Especially if jobs secure, which as it sounds she's one of the more useful there...
At 18 and a week after passing my test having few dozen hours of experience in a minimetro I had a trainee engineer try to force me to drive a lorry halfway across the county. On the basis my licence said I could and my employment contract said I could be asked. I told him the thing frightened me and if I drove it I'd probably kill someone. They told me the 20 year old relic frightened our army trained lorry driver as if that made it ok. The turd took it personally and made grief for me, he was a real 2 faced piece of work though.
But yeah, if she's not happy don't do it. In a union by any chance?
At 18 and a week after passing my test having few dozen hours of experience in a minimetro I had a trainee engineer try to force me to drive a lorry halfway across the county. On the basis my licence said I could and my employment contract said I could be asked. I told him the thing frightened me and if I drove it I'd probably kill someone. They told me the 20 year old relic frightened our army trained lorry driver as if that made it ok. The turd took it personally and made grief for me, he was a real 2 faced piece of work though.
But yeah, if she's not happy don't do it. In a union by any chance?
normalbloke said:
Tell her to mark the defects down, and the tyres being unsuitable for the condition, onto the daily VDF form and TOR it.
I dont think they have defect sheets, and the tyres have been mentioned but because they are the correct size and more than 3mm tread its roadworthy. Because it doesn't jump out of gear every trip it is being blamed on driver error at the moment.
Its a pk6 gearbox so I have no doubt it is not far from a catastrophic failure. Probably when my mrs is trying to transport a previously violent, drunk and high, young offender somehere on her own.
RoSPA have a couple of good guides on minibus driving.
https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-service...
https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-service...
Depending on when she passed her test, she may actually need a PCV licence to drive a minibus whilst in paid employment
https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus
https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-service...
https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-service...
Depending on when she passed her test, she may actually need a PCV licence to drive a minibus whilst in paid employment
https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus
oldbanger said:
RoSPA have a couple of good guides on minibus driving.
https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-service...
https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-service...
Depending on when she passed her test, she may actually need a PCV licence to drive a minibus whilst in paid employment
https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus
does a vivaro come under that? 8 passengers plus driver and 2.9t gvwhttps://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-service...
https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-service...
Depending on when she passed her test, she may actually need a PCV licence to drive a minibus whilst in paid employment
https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus
Different gov web sites seem to be contradictory.
Also, would rather push harder on the road conditions and drivers own assesment of her abilities in those conditions. rather than the vehicle, in case they borrow the zafira from another unit.
Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Sunday 3rd January 15:08
OldGermanHeaps said:
normalbloke said:
Tell her to mark the defects down, and the tyres being unsuitable for the condition, onto the daily VDF form and TOR it.
I dont think they have defect sheets, and the tyres have been mentioned but because they are the correct size and more than 3mm tread its roadworthy. Because it doesn't jump out of gear every trip it is being blamed on driver error at the moment.
Its a pk6 gearbox so I have no doubt it is not far from a catastrophic failure. Probably when my mrs is trying to transport a previously violent, drunk and high, young offender somehere on her own.
normalbloke said:
If it doesn’t have a daily VDF book, tell her to ask ‘why not’. I’m guessing there have been years of an ‘it’ll be OK’ attitude, and now it’s raised it’s ugly head as to how low the standards are.
Possibly, failure to comply with proper h&s standards and procedures and keep mandatory paperwork might possibly allegedly maybe be why 2 possible managers may or may not be on suspension. allegedy. or maybe those people are just fictional examples, I'm not sure what you would be allowed to disclose about an ongoing case, but we just want to make sure her refusal to drive in these conditions doesn't have any comeback, and if it does that the appropriate people get dragged through the coals.To be honest we are both over this job now, its nothing like when she started, but it isnt exactly time to be looking for a job right now and she doesn't want to do bookkeeping for me so it is what it is.
OldGermanHeaps said:
Possibly, failure to comply with proper h&s standards and procedures and keep mandatory paperwork might possibly allegedly maybe be why 2 possible managers may or may not be on suspension. allegedy. or maybe those people are just fictional examples, I'm not sure what you would be allowed to disclose about an ongoing case, but we just want to make sure her refusal to drive in these conditions doesn't have any comeback, and if it does that the appropriate people get dragged through the coals.
To be honest we are both over this job now, its nothing like when she started, but it isnt exactly time to be looking for a job right now and she doesn't want to do bookkeeping for me so it is what it is.
worth researching there could be all kinds of rules about driving hours logs etc when doing it paid and transporting clientsTo be honest we are both over this job now, its nothing like when she started, but it isnt exactly time to be looking for a job right now and she doesn't want to do bookkeeping for me so it is what it is.
And don't rely on bosses at any level to know the rules - the electric board I worked for hived the company after privatisation into separate mains utility/private contracting concerns, with the private contracting side decided they'd like to continue to enjoy the utilities sides tacho exemptions, which ended in a predictably big panic...
I think that the first thing that she should do is contact the council's H&S officer informally and explain the position to them, find out what risk assessments are in force for the transport of clients, especially taking into account their special needs, and see what their view is before taking any action. The concept of a 'competent person' runs right through H&S legislation, and with all respect to your wife, this would be difficult to determine if her ability to drive that type of vehicle has not been assessed.
In the meantime, you may find this useful, I'm afraid that it is lengthy, and a lot of it is guidance, so the word 'should' rather than 'must' often appears, but like the Highway Code, this does mean that not doing something when you 'should' lets anyone off, eg the reference to Passenger Assistants on page 5 might be relevant to your wife's circumstances , and also the council may not be insured for transporting other staff home if it is not in their contracts of work, which could end badly:
http://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services...
HTH, I hope that she gets it resolved satisfactorily
In the meantime, you may find this useful, I'm afraid that it is lengthy, and a lot of it is guidance, so the word 'should' rather than 'must' often appears, but like the Highway Code, this does mean that not doing something when you 'should' lets anyone off, eg the reference to Passenger Assistants on page 5 might be relevant to your wife's circumstances , and also the council may not be insured for transporting other staff home if it is not in their contracts of work, which could end badly:
http://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services...
HTH, I hope that she gets it resolved satisfactorily
Legally shes not meant to drive it
Conditions you must meet
You can drive a minibus within the UK as long as the following conditions apply:
you’re 21 or older
you’ve had your driving licence for at least 2 years
you meet the ‘Group 2’ medical standards if you’re over 70 - check with your GP if you’re not sure you meet the standards
you’re driving on a voluntary basis and the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
the maximum weight of the minibus is not more than 3.5 tonnes - or 4.25 tonnes including specialist equipment for disabled passengers, for example a wheelchair ramp
you’re not towing a trailer
https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus
Conditions you must meet
You can drive a minibus within the UK as long as the following conditions apply:
you’re 21 or older
you’ve had your driving licence for at least 2 years
you meet the ‘Group 2’ medical standards if you’re over 70 - check with your GP if you’re not sure you meet the standards
you’re driving on a voluntary basis and the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
the maximum weight of the minibus is not more than 3.5 tonnes - or 4.25 tonnes including specialist equipment for disabled passengers, for example a wheelchair ramp
you’re not towing a trailer
https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus
A500leroy said:
Legally shes not meant to drive it
Conditions you must meet
You can drive a minibus within the UK as long as the following conditions apply:
you’re 21 or older
you’ve had your driving licence for at least 2 years
you meet the ‘Group 2’ medical standards if you’re over 70 - check with your GP if you’re not sure you meet the standards
you’re driving on a voluntary basis and the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
the maximum weight of the minibus is not more than 3.5 tonnes - or 4.25 tonnes including specialist equipment for disabled passengers, for example a wheelchair ramp
you’re not towing a trailer
https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus
does 9 seats drag it just inside car category?Conditions you must meet
You can drive a minibus within the UK as long as the following conditions apply:
you’re 21 or older
you’ve had your driving licence for at least 2 years
you meet the ‘Group 2’ medical standards if you’re over 70 - check with your GP if you’re not sure you meet the standards
you’re driving on a voluntary basis and the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
the maximum weight of the minibus is not more than 3.5 tonnes - or 4.25 tonnes including specialist equipment for disabled passengers, for example a wheelchair ramp
you’re not towing a trailer
https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus
in cases like this unions tend to be very helpful, local government you say?
you wife should join unite and tell her managers to do one and report any pressure(bullying) to her union rep.
https://unitetheunion.org/
she can even join online
you wife should join unite and tell her managers to do one and report any pressure(bullying) to her union rep.
https://unitetheunion.org/
she can even join online
Thank you.
Do we know for sure, is a 9 seater, 8 passenger 2.9t vivaro definitely a minibus, or is it considered a large car?
Also if they try to get the zafira in can she still refuse to drive on icy roads as she is not confident in her abilities in that respect?
I dont think I helped the other day doing some quattro pivot on its own centre donuts at my work in the frozen yard, daughters loved it but mrs was thumping my arm.
Unite rep is off just now and today is last day before my mrs is using up some annual leave so she wont see the rep until the 18th.
Do we know for sure, is a 9 seater, 8 passenger 2.9t vivaro definitely a minibus, or is it considered a large car?
Also if they try to get the zafira in can she still refuse to drive on icy roads as she is not confident in her abilities in that respect?
I dont think I helped the other day doing some quattro pivot on its own centre donuts at my work in the frozen yard, daughters loved it but mrs was thumping my arm.
Unite rep is off just now and today is last day before my mrs is using up some annual leave so she wont see the rep until the 18th.
Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Sunday 3rd January 15:43
OldGermanHeaps said:
Thank you.
Do we know for sure, is a 9 seater, 8 passenger 2.9t vivaro definitely a minibus, or is it considered a large car?
https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/blog/2019/02/do-i-need-driving-licence-to-drive-minibus.htmlDo we know for sure, is a 9 seater, 8 passenger 2.9t vivaro definitely a minibus, or is it considered a large car?
Under UK law minibuses are only considered to be vehicles with 9 to 16 seats. Smaller vehicles like 8 seater cars aren’t considered minibuses, and under most situations are legal to drive on standard car licences.
Of course she can refuse the job doesn't mention a driver's license.
So whilst she will have a clause saying not to refuse any reasonable request, the omission of need for license trumps it, have they every checked her licence, eyesight.
If not they are a disgrace and putting people at risk because they have not assessed the risk
So whilst she will have a clause saying not to refuse any reasonable request, the omission of need for license trumps it, have they every checked her licence, eyesight.
If not they are a disgrace and putting people at risk because they have not assessed the risk
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